WW XCVI - The Fell Winter of 2911

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Not that I'd think our seer is dumb or anything, but she shouldn't forget about the cobbler before revealing if she hasn't targeted her before.

Oh, you're doing it again, this time for the Seer AND the cobbler. What's up with you?

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Look at my last post and you'll see I'm also the seer.

Yeah. Which one are you?

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I seem to recall Agan having a habit of calling the Cobbler "she". Why? Ask the wind why it blows.

The Seer too, eh?

I don't remember Agan refering to an unknown role as a "she" before. Well, I would have had to learn that sooner or later. I apologize to the village for messing things, and - of course - I clear that point on Agan.

But I was so excited when I saw it!...

I hope you're better soon, sally! And Lommy!

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

edit2: am I the only who keeps switching the words in the thread title the other way around? I know, I'm corrupted and should go to bed...

<3 lol! ^^

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

The case of Agan calling everyone "she" is well-known, so it would hardly raise my eyebrows.

Maybe I forgot, or I just haven't played enough games with Agan, but this is the first time I see this habbit.

Originally Posted by Legate

I think [Menel] said what he said just as part of the early banter, where nobody said nothing, and so did he. Then he sort of said that we should turn to the vocal ones if we keep missing our targets (provided the village still exists at that point, I would need to calculate the numbers to figure out, there are not that many of us as Lommy had pointed out), which I think is not so groundbreaking new theory either, but in fact, it is rather sensible. So no problem with that - it even has some substance.

There's a difference between being sensible and being sensible and obvious. Saying "wolves are bad" is also a pretty logical and sensible thing. Where I'm getting at, is that I get what you're saying about Menel's posts being true and substancial, but I also get the other side of it, that they are what is to be understood without having to say it.

I find Menel's posts kinda awkward; not because he's saying the obvious truth, but because of how hard he defends it. When people commented on how he posts (ie being obvious), he repeated his point again with elaboration and etc., but was no less obvious. It's not like anyone disagrees with what he says, it's how he says it, and this does not change from post to post. I'll keep in mind that he is back from a very big break, and unless there's some more substancial point against him I wouldn't consider him more suspicious than most.

Originally Posted by Meneltarmacil

While the wolves may use a variety of playing styles, the most dangerous is the one who can manipulate the village, and as such, we need to be aware that a string of "bad luck" may not be entirely caused by chance.

Menel, please understand this - no one's questioning what you say. We know this, and we agree. People are questioning why you are saying it, since it's not something one can't figure out from reading the general guidelines to WW.


I'll put up a list of some sort a bit later.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Pitch

This is kind of obvious - actually, a little too obvious for my taste. Or should it be read as "Hear me, packmates, and keep a low profile while we help the loudmouths lynch each other"?

Perhaps, but doesn't it make more sense that a Wolftarmacil would have just said that to his packmates during the night, instead of attempting to hint to his fellows on-thread when we're all watching?

Originally Posted by Pitch

Actually, what it does scream is "gratuitous Skyrim reference";

I got it.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Rather, it would be in the wolves' interest to bring attention to the cobbler.

Normally, I can see that. Given how useful the cobbler is to the wolves this game, though (rather more than your run-of-the-mill cobbler), I don't know that I agree with this statement. I would think it would benefit the wolves more to keep attention off their Gifted-blocker.

Originally Posted by Inzil

I'd also like to add that with the Cobbler's extra abilities this go around, there ought not to be anyone saying something "Leave X be; just a Cobbler".

Shasta agreeing with Inzil? On anything? What is the world coming to? I do agree with this, though (of course, I've been saying not to ignore the Cobbler for a long time, too.)

Originally Posted by Pitch

Never mind what I said above about cobbler discussion in general, who but the wolves would need to worry about that?

Translation - "I've hit on a perfect way to be able to suspect anyone; all they have to do is ask a question about a role we've never seen before!"

Pitch is pinging my radar.

Originally Posted by G55

This looks a bit overly defensive/dramatic for my taste. And this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Menel
However, even if innocents are lynching innocents, you can bet that there will be at least one wolf making sure his fellows aren't going to the noose. Whether he is making the major arguments himself or merely reinforcing those made by the gullible, I still expect a wolf or two to be involved when multiple innocents are lynched in a row.
...is the second time you're stating the obvious.

I don't know your playing style, and it might have changed anyways over your absence, and playing for the first time after a big break can be nervewracking, I guess, but you do sound a bit too concerned.

This bothers me. The timing is interesting - G55 is the third person to jump on the "Menel is too obvious" bandwagon. And have you really not played enough with Agan to know that she refers to all roles as "she"?

Originally Posted by Agan

Which means that the way Kath initiated the cobbler talk raised my hackles a tiny bit

You're right, this is a bit hypocritical. What I don't really care for, though, is the way you yourself mentioned it and then laughed it off as though it doesn't really matter. Why is it that Kath seems suspicious for talking about the cobbler, yet you don't?

Originally Posted by Inzil

Menel has merited a comment for his words, but more than one person homing in on it at once puts one in mind of a pack of salivating beasts eyeing some raw meat.

I'm agreeing with Inzil again. Inzil, what exactly did you put in this brew of yours...?

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Now it may be I'm also in a bit of rust, but to me Zil's point about the cobbler needing to avoid Night-kills kind of raised some alarms.

I didn't really think about it until Nog's post, but that seems to me just as much "stating the obvious" as Menel was doing earlier... which also makes me wonder why those who pounced on Menel for it (Pitch, my shining star, G55) didn't also pounce on Inzil.

Originally Posted by Menel

If there is a period of three or more Days in which only innocents are lynched, then we should look for a wolf among the most influential people during that time.

Also, if there's a period of three or more Days in which only innocents have been lynched, we've already lost (unless the Ranger is awesome, and even then, the odds suck.)

Whew, I think that's pretty much everything thus far. Dear light, might I trouble you for another drink? Thirsty work, and all that.

[Meneltarmacil]

Inzil's post does seem a bit suspicious to me, despite my disagreement with Nogrod thus far, in a "psst, cobbler, give us some hints so we don't eat you" way.

What is stranger still, as Shasta pointed out, was the lack of reaction to this statement of Inzil's and so far only Nogrod seems to regard it as "off."

[Inziladun]

Whew. Dealing with rough weather here tonight! I think I'm one of the few around here who has electricity.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

The case of Agan calling everyone "she" is well-known, so it would hardly raise my eyebrows. But as for G55's vehement case, I can see her becoming intent on exploring some issue like that, so I am not intent to putting much behind either issue.

Hmm. G55 may indeed have not noticed that habit of Agan's before, or she may have forgotten it. If anything strikes me about G55, it's the questioning of Agan combined with what appears to be a piling on to what Pitch started about Menel.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

More interestingly, what's up with Lommy and Nog suspecting Menel? I think he said what he said just as part of the early banter, where nobody said nothing, and so did he. Then he sort of said that we should turn to the vocal ones if we keep missing our targets (provided the village still exists at that point, I would need to calculate the numbers to figure out, there are not that many of us as Lommy had pointed out), which I think is not so groundbreaking new theory either, but in fact, it is rather sensible. So no problem with that - it even has some substance. I just wonder if this is the thing I remember from ages ago, when Menel was playing and very often he ended up victim of some random accusation. I'd be wary of that, especially on Day 1.

Agreed. The whole thing about Menel looks like the beginning stirrings of a bandwagon.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Thoughts on those who have posted so far:

Gal55 - content-free first post, can be anything.

Zil - mostly commenting, reasonable points, basically his standard inscrutable self; defends Menel against me (which I actually like).

Lommy - sick, therefore excused.

Menel - has been a bit Captain Obvious and theoretical up to now, but his elaboration on his first post is sound enough, and his reaction to me doesn't strike me as particularly wolvish. Anyway, like Legate said, I'd need a good reason to vote him D1 in his first game in ages.

Legate - posting behaviour similar to Zil, reasonable stuff, wishy-washy as far as suspicions go (which is nothing new), except he seems to feel good about Kath.

Kath - "interested and active", yes, and I find no fault in wanting to discuss the new and improved(TM) cobbler, but the piece from her last post I paraphrased seems to me to be thinking too much from the perspective of the wolves.

Agan - don't trust her farther than I can throw her on general principle, but there's nothing especially alerting yet, except maybe the bit about me being the cobbler, where I'm not sure whether she was teasing me, suspecting me or hinting at me (probably not the latter, too obvious).

- The above was written before everybody started talking, especially before Gal accused Menel, which is exactly the sort of latching-on I hoped to provoke by poking at him (and yes, Menel, I think we've all got what your point was by now). And look, Nog is doing it too, casting some doubt but not actually committing to anything. I don't approve. As for his point about Zil, I'll need that explained to me, because I don't really get what he's trying to say.

Btw, I have to vote within the next half hour or so, DL being in the middle of my workday. I could imagine voting Kath for that wolf-think quote, but we'll see.

I don't know if I really think Kath is all that suspicious just based on that quote. As someone pointed out, couldn't the wolves PM the moddess instead of risking saying that here? Could be she just wasn't thinking, but still....

Pitch mostly makes sense, but every so often something, like the Kath suspicion, makes me wonder. And the vote for Nog sure was sudden.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Perhaps, but doesn't it make more sense that a Wolftarmacil would have just said that to his packmates during the night, instead of attempting to hint to his fellows on-thread when we're all watching?

Agreed! Have we stumbled into a parallel universe?

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

This bothers me. The timing is interesting - G55 is the third person to jump on the "Menel is too obvious" bandwagon. And have you really not played enough with Agan to know that she refers to all roles as "she"?

Yeah, like I said , I'm rather bothered by G55. I'll probably have to vote soon, and she may be my pick.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

I'm agreeing with Inzil again. Inzil, what exactly did you put in this brew of yours...?

Sorry, but it's a house secret. And bark from trees in the Old Forest is definitely not an ingredient.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

I didn't really think about it until Nog's post, but that seems to me just as much "stating the obvious" as Menel was doing earlier... which also makes me wonder why those who pounced on Menel for it (Pitch, my shining star, G55) didn't also pounce on Inzil.

I don't know either. Are you trying to incite them to do so?

[Inziladun]

Ok. It's bedtime, and with the morning madness that is my weekday routine, I may or may not make back before DL.

I guess I can see Pitch's point on Nog, and it's tempting to follow Pitch's lead there. However, I think that in the totality of circumstance, G55 looks worse.

++G55

Choose well.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

This bothers me. The timing is interesting - G55 is the third person to jump on the "Menel is too obvious" bandwagon. And have you really not played enough with Agan to know that she refers to all roles as "she"?

Apparently not, since I honestly don't remember such a thing from the past. As for the timing, well, you expect someone to react to suspicion, not repeat the reason for the suspicion. Which is why my post, which talks about the second time suspicious behaviour is repeated, could not possibly have come before the suspicion itself. And I cross-posted with Nerwen.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Yeah, like I said , I'm rather bothered by G55.

I'm a rather bothersome person. Especially when I have too much free time on my hands and too high a post count.

[Galadriel55]

Well, I have to go to bed soon, otherwise my head will feel like a brick tomorrow. Looking at my list, Pitch is the one who gives me the most bad vibes. See the list for my thoughts on him.

++PITCH




Incidentally, what was the decision for ties? I don't think this point was ever clarified...

[Meneltarmacil]

I think I'll vote now, and it will be for

++Inziladun

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Well, I have to go to bed soon, otherwise my head will feel like a brick tomorrow. Looking at my list, Pitch is the one who gives me the most bad vibes. See the list for my thoughts on him.

++PITCH




Incidentally, what was the decision for ties? I don't think this point was ever clarified...

Ehhh. I don't like this at all. G55's first suspicion was on Menel, and it was bandwagony. In her list, though, she backs off Menel (because of the opposition it's getting?) and really only gives a solid statement on Pitch (and perhaps [b]Nogrod, but as it's based on an emoticon...) while also saying this -

Originally Posted by G55

However, his vote for Nog is not unreasonable from his perspective.

- which is extremely confusing; if you don't agree with Pitch's perspective (hence being suspicious of him on your list), how can his vote be okay?

Summa summarum - G55 suspects Menel until opposition is too strong, and backs off, going instead for Pitch with odd/weird/confusing reasoning. I don't disagree that Pitch is suspicious (cf. my previous post - he does seem like he's jumping at the chance to blow up incredibly minor things into full-fledged suspicion), but I think I'm more suspicious of G55.

++G55

[Nerwen]

Back. Reading.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Meneltarmacil

While the wolves may use a variety of playing styles, the most dangerous is the one who can manipulate the village

The most dangerous is the one who survives, and it's often easier to survive if you stay out of the spotlight and play it smooth. That's why I prefer to vote for a quiet player if I have no better option. I'm still not quite as sceptical as Nog, though - I've seen bold wolves lead the village by the nose more than once or twice and survive to win.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Oh, you're doing it again, this time for the Seer AND the cobbler. What's up with you?

In a language with gender-specific pronouns, everyone is female for me unless proven otherwise. If you've played with me before, you've seen me do it - but I seem to remember you've had a tendency to die early whenever we've played together.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Normally, I can see that. Given how useful the cobbler is to the wolves this game, though (rather more than your run-of-the-mill cobbler), I don't know that I agree with this statement. I would think it would benefit the wolves more to keep attention off their Gifted-blocker.

Normally, the cobbler has no special abilities to help the wolves with. No one will spot the cobbler just because we talk about her (unless she makes an obvious slip ), but the wolves might not be particularly averse to bringing it up to test the ice and see if anyone returns their cobbler signals. Just because they wouldn't want to kill their little helper by accident, now would they?

You're right, this is a bit hypocritical. What I don't really care for, though, is the way you yourself mentioned it and then laughed it off as though it doesn't really matter. Why is it that Kath seems suspicious for talking about the cobbler, yet you don't?

You've completely misinterpreted what I said. I laughed about being hypocritical because I said talking about the cobbler may be a sign of wolvery while I always do it myself, no matter my role. I didn't say Kath is suspicious for doing it but because of how she brought it up.

I'm agreeing with Inzil again. Inzil, what exactly did you put in this brew of yours...?

I often find it easier to agree with people I normally don't when we're packmates.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I don't know if I really think Kath is all that suspicious just based on that quote. As someone pointed out, couldn't the wolves PM the moddess instead of risking saying that here? Could be she just wasn't thinking, but still....

It's not as if a wolf asked it for the benefit of the rest of the pack but for the cobbler.