Did Denethor see Frodo captured in the Palantir?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Fascinating topic lmp You wouldn't happen to have the quote available would you? Certainly after discovering Faramir had let the hobbits (and the Ring) go, I can see a motivation for Denethor to seek information on them, and thus the possibility he had seen Frodo captured.

Let me add to the praise of the topic. It's an amazing thing about these books: no matter how many times you've read them, there always seems to be new questions to consider.

I would think the suggestive quotes are these after Faramir's wounding by the Nazgûl:

Then [Denethor] bade them make a bed in the chamber and lay Faramir upon it and depart. But he himself went up alone into the secret room under the summit of the Tower, and many who looked up thither at that time saw a pale light that gleamed and flickered from the narrow windows for a while, and then flashed and went out.

Soon afterward, Pippin noticed a marked change in Denethor, and the latter said this:

'Comfort me not with wizards!' said Denethor. 'The fool's hope has failed. The Enemy has found it, and now his power waxes; he sees our very thoughts, and all we do is ruinous'.

Now, The Tale of Years puts Frodo's capture in Cirith Ungol and Faramir's wounding on the same day, March 13th. However, Shagrat did not reach Barad-dûr carrying Frodo's items until the 17th. So I think Sauron certainly did not know anything about Frodo that could have had a connection with Denethor's madness.

My opinion is that Denethor cast his gaze upon Cirith Ungol (knowing from Faramir that Frodo had gone that way) and saw Frodo lying in the Tower. With the knowledge that Frodo had had the Ring, added to Faramir's condition, no wonder the guy went insane.

[littlemanpoet]

You have it right, Inziladun. Nice work. I never seem to have my books with me when I get online. So thanks.

So it appears (if I may use language so suggestive) that Tolkien covered his tracks on this one. Sauron apparently had so much else he was paying attention to, and did not consider how invaluable were the Palantiri, and to make matters worse (for Sauron that is), Denethor was strong enough of will that Sauron had to wrench the stone FROM him. I had not thought of it that way.

So it is indeed apparent that Sauron did NOT know that the captive in Cirith Ungol was indeed the Ringbearer. And here I thought that just maybe I'd found something by which Tolkien had not niggled enough. Silly me.

[littlemanpoet]

What got me going in the first place is apparently an error by Tom Shippey in J.R.R. Tolkien: Author of the Century, toward the end of his chapter on the mythic dimension, where he says,

The likelihood is that [Frodo captured and taken to Minas Morgul {sic}] is what Denethor has seen, in a vision controlled by Sauron.

So Shippey's wrong about Minas Morgul already, and apparently he's incorrect about Sauron's control. Hmm... is he also wrong about author of the century?

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Now, The Tale of Years puts Frodo's capture in Cirith Ungol and Faramir's wounding on the same day, March 13th. However, Shagrat did not reach Barad-dûr carrying Frodo's items until the 17th. So I think Sauron certainly did not know anything about Frodo that could have had a connection with Denethor's madness.

My opinion is that Denethor cast his gaze upon Cirith Ungol (knowing from Faramir that Frodo had gone that way) and saw Frodo lying in the Tower. With the knowledge that Frodo had had the Ring, added to Faramir's condition, no wonder the guy went insane.

What about the conversation between Gorbag and Shagrat right at the end of The choices of Master Samwise?

"And we'vestruck a bit of luck at last :got something that Lugburz wants.....no I don't know' said Gorbag's voice.'The messages go through quicker than anythong could fly as a rule. But I don't enquire how it's done. Safest not to..... about an hour ago .. A message came 'Nazgul uneasy. Spies feared on stairs. Douuble Vigilance' ..but my patrol wasn't ordered out for another day due to the Great Signal going up ,,, and then they couldn't get Lugburz to pay attention for a good while I'm told"

Shagrat didn't have to reach Barad Dur. Details were to be sent in advance by this undisclosed message system.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

What about the conversation between Gorbag and Shagrat right at the end of The choices of Master Samwise?

"And we'vestruck a bit of luck at last :got something that Lugburz wants.....no I don't know' said Gorbag's voice.'The messages go through quicker than anythong could fly as a rule. But I don't enquire how it's done. Safest not to..... about an hour ago .. A message came 'Nazgul uneasy. Spies feared on stairs. Douuble Vigilance' ..but my patrol wasn't ordered out for another day due to the Great Signal going up ,,, and then they couldn't get Lugburz to pay attention for a good while I'm told"

Shagrat didn't have to reach Barad Dur. Details were to be sent in advance by this undisclosed message system.

An interesting consideration.

To make sure I understand, are you suggesting that Sauron did send Denethor a message, perhaps with a vision of the captured "spy"? But for what purpose: merely to dishearten him, thinking indeed that Frodo was just on an important scouting mission for Gondor? Why would Sauron think that Denethor even needed such a spy anyway, since he knew Denethor to be in possession of a palantír himself?

[Mithalwen]

No I am merely saying that the date of Shagrat's reaching Barad Dur with the artefacts doesn't seem to be crucial. If Sauron knew the details of Frodo's clothing and the staff of Lebethron that Faramir gave him and which was left by him then that would have been enough to convince Denethor maybe.

[Meneltarmacil]

Denethor was probably checking on Cirith Ungol without any prompting from Sauron, as he would have been interested in the status of the Ring himself.