Scarburg Meadhall Discussion Thread

[littlemanpoet]

Tolkien's plot was way more complex. No problem there.

I'm suggesting that the cultural setting is not as stratified as you are describing, nor the people so under the thumb of lords. The society was known for its free land holders, with Thains and Eorls, as opposed to lords with manors holding people in feudal domination.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Tolkien's plot was way more complex. No problem there.

That's what I thought...

I'm suggesting that the cultural setting is not as stratified as you are describing, nor the people so under the thumb of lords. The society was known for its free land holders, with Thains and Eorls, as opposed to lords with manors holding people in feudal domination.

Naturally... I mean those suggestions were just shorthand notes as to some general possibilities (I mean I have already hundred times more complex ideas about it already - not to talk of adding other people's contributions to it).

Also. After our last discussion on the general political climate on Rohan I have actually taken heed of your description of it as the libertarian utopia and at least hope I have acted / written accordingly. But if it is the libertarian land I think can be backed by the writings of Tolkien at least in part, then we must remember that ultimate freedom and the absence of state also means the "freedom" to be oppressed or the "freedom" to oppress... I mean how would an independent and "free" farmer with only his family around him oppose someone like Faramund if he came there with a dozen eorlinga and demanded this or that? Or if he gave him these or those terms for a deal to help him?

I mean if you get people organized against the oppression of the higher class you know what system of political arrangement we're talking about then?

[Galadriel55]

Well most of LOTR (except for references to events that happened ages and Ages ago) takes place late TA, in the middle of a war. Fourth Age peace could potentially mean less energy dedicated to outwitting the enemy and more energy to outwitting your neighbour. I think there were other FA RPGs that explored the idea of honesty and chivalry becoming meaningless in the peaceful world and skill at court intrigues replacing them. Such a result would be a natural assumption, and court intrigue would be the main source of plot ideas once the fighting is done.

Yet from what Tolkien did write, I think he intended early FA (and 14 is still pretty early) to be a good time, and free of such "parasites". I think that he meant to bring the peace but keep the chivalry, at least for another few decades.

So it's a question of balance between staying true to what was assumed from what was written and having an interesting not-solely-character-based plot. Plus, the suggestions about the lords are not exactly court intrigue, they are just rogue lords...


PS: Legate, I just remembered something I did not include in my list of important stuff that happened recently. Harreld has discovered osanwe, but in a limited form. You might have read about it already, but, just in case.

[Folwren]

Oh, wow. That was quickly dealt with. I guess it would be...makes sense.

I would be willing to take one of the lord's characters, so long as I have a clear idea of what needs to happen. I think I'm a little confused about everything that Nogrod said, but sometime when I have more free time, I will re-read it and then ask for clarification if I need it.

-- Folwren

[littlemanpoet]

I suppose I could argue further as to how such terms as "libertarian" and "utopia" are meaningless in the context of LOTR in general, and The Mark specifically. However, how we discuss the upcoming scenario and how it actually gets written will most likely be two entirely different things, and if we are (more or less) true to the spirit of The Mark of the early 4th age, with rogue lords (which in the case of 4th age Mark would merely mean richer and more power landholders than those around them), then everything will be fine.

Speaking of which: the way it would really work in The Mark, economically, early 4th age, would be thus: The strata of government consist of king, eorls, and land holders. That's it. There is one king, now three eorls, and many landholders. Some landholders are more powerful and richer than others, and it would make sense that war veterans (if they took loot home especially), would be richer than most.

If these richer landholders are wily, they could perhaps (if they really put their minds to it) devise a plan that over the course of 14 years results in an additional layer of stratification because they were able to put a lot of other landholders around them in their debt, thus causing themselves to be seen as lords, especially seeing as this particular piece of The Mark seemed to get lost in the shuffle - which is why Eomer created the Middle Emnet Eorl in the first place. Would that work?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Folwren

Oh, wow. That was quickly dealt with. I guess it would be...makes sense.

Heh. Let's say it is quickly dealt for the time being.

As Eodwine asked for leave to discuss with Saeryn, Athanar thought it wise to not let the whole bunch just sit and wait - especially as Eodwine's words opened a kind of path that might lead into abandonment of furthering the whole case, or at least a serious reconsideration of it (if Saeryn would come to her senses after speaking with his husband etc.). So he decided just to punish Scyrr from his behaviour a) on forgetting his rank while drunk, and b) how he behaved there at the "court" - and let it open whether there would be added penalties for him; depending on Eodwine's and Saeryn's willingness to demand them (on the insult issue), or how the general public would react to this decision.

So you should probably write a scene between Saeryn and Eodwine as to, well first and foremost about their relation to be sure, but also about would they like to continue the case or let Scyrr off the hook with what he got there.

Originally Posted by lmp

I suppose I could argue further as to how such terms as "libertarian" and "utopia" are meaningless in the context of LOTR in general, and The Mark specifically.

And you would probably win that argument if anyone decided to take the opposite position... But yes, I only used them as shorthand markers referring to our previous discussion about the society in Mark - in which I think you used many phrases I have heard from American libertarians in today's discussion. But yes, labels are secondary things. The more important thing is to get a shared view on how that society "works" so that we have a common ground from where to write our characters and their reactions to different situations. In that vein I find your suggestions good ones in deed.


So yeah, let's say the primary way these three "landlords" have risen to their position at Mid Emnet is their stature as war-heroes, of course, but especially their economic power with which they have managed to turn some independent landholders (aka. farmers) into... being heavily debted to them - which someone else might call serfdom or slavery or peasantry - or whichever words one wishes to use (I'd know some more suitable terms in Finnish but I'm not sure if they mean the same in English so I'm not even trying them here). But yes they are free in some sense but so strongly tied to these wealthier lords by their debt they have no possibility but to obey them and live in poverty (not all should be in that sad situation, of course).

But the idea behind all this would then be, that they charge unfair interests of what they lend etc. So they use the others' plight into their own advantage.


There is one question though I think needs some thinking over.

So how about the power of judgement?

If I've gotten it right, one of the Mead Hall's basic functions is to stand as King's justice at the area. Before there had been none at Mid Emnet but now there would be. But how were disputes, arguments or crimes solved before? Everyone for himself? Mob rule? Surely they wouldn't take every issue to the king far away from their home - and the king wouldn't have time for them if that was a common way of doing things everywhere where there was no mead Hall around?

And even an "Althing"-kind of system where all the free men, or households, gathered to make decisions would require some people having special roles.

Now there are several mentionings in the thread that the lords (the three richest ones) have also being giving the law thus far. We can thus accept that (and come up with an explanation as to how that has happened), take thats as a mistake and go back editing all those parts from the thread, or just ignore that.

I think the best way to approach this is to come up with the best possible solution as to how the legal system of Mid Emnet would have worked and then see how it fits with what we have already written, and then deciding should we do something about what has been already written.

One scenario that comes to my mind would be a kind of a slow emergence of the "judical power" of our three lords (or two, or one of them if we wish).

Let's say that at year zero me and my neighbour have a dispute over whether I can use the pond at the borderline of our farms he uses to water his fields to water my livestock (okay, bad example, but whatever). So how do we determine that question if he thinks I have no right to water my stock from where he waters his fields, but I still think he has no right to deny me the use of the pond? Now it might enter our minds that there lives this great warhero nearby who has stature over us both and probably no personal interest on the matter. Why shouldn't we ask him what to do? And from cases like that, during the years, a decade, and more... it would have kind of become natural that a few people have the authority to judge on that kind of matters... and little by little they would have started to take care they gain from their "work as judges" of sorts?

Well, that's an idea. Other ideas?

[Folwren]

In the old Mead Hall, Eodwine held court. So maybe that sort of judicial system is already in place. Do you mean that the richer landlords, like Freduhelm (that's the elderly chap, right?) already carried on court like that, before Eodwine came to Scarburg?

-- Foley

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Folwren

Freduhelm (that's the elderly chap, right?)

Friduhelm.

Nog, I think your scenario example of the evolution of the judicial system is very reasonable, and more than that, it sounds probable.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Folwren

In the old Mead Hall, Eodwine held court. So maybe that sort of judicial system is already in place. Do you mean that the richer landlords, like Freduhelm (that's the elderly chap, right?) already carried on court like that, before Eodwine came to Scarburg?

Yes and no...

I mean The Mead Halls, as I understand them, would be places where there would be a kind of King's legitimized court - like what Eodwine carried out in the older Mead Hall. Thus far there has been none like that in the Mid Emnet - and King Eomer has wished there to be one - and thus he has founded the Scarburg Mead Hall.

But what I was after was that there should have been some kind of system for making judgements on different disputes or crimes even when there hasn't been a Mead Hall as the legitimate King's court around.

My idea was, that in the absence of a Mead Hall and an eorl to make verdicts with the king's legitimation, the more powerful local lords might have kind of taken / gotten that priviledge to themselves as it seems clear there has to be some kind of a stage from where to settle the disputes there always will be. So it would not be a "court like that" aka.a Mead Hall, but something like a un-official (from king Eomer's POV) judical system working on a Mead Hall's place and which the locals had adopted... and which the lords might have then abused later on.

[Firefoot]

Sorry if I've left you with a difficult hook, lmp - I'm feeling a little rusty...

Also, wanted to say that my time online may be limited in the next two weeks.

[littlemanpoet]

No problem, I'm too distracted by RL to deal with this minor issue right now. But I'll get to it.

[littlemanpoet]

Far be it from me to hold things up for everybody else while two writers take over the whole thread. I've posted so that we can move to a new day. I guess we could go to the new day right away, or Firefoot could write one more post for Scyld, if she is so inclned.

[Galadriel55]

I edited the second half of my last post because I wrote it in a hurry and didn't finish it the way I wanted to. It doesn't change the story in the end, but I thought I should mention it.