One Thing That I Think Tolkien Did Wrong and Jackson Did Right

[Galadriel55]

Once the Mordor artilleries have fired their explosive loads, quickly followed by the human heads, they've done their job and it doesn't matter who or what hits them. They can go back to Mordor for all the difference it makes.

And once again, because you still refuse to listen even after all those times that all those people told you so, Gondor's catapults could not reach the Mordorian ones!!! Could not. That's that. You say yourself that Gondorians aren't stupid, that they too can use lighter loads, but the situation for whatever reason was such that whatever they did did not help them in time. And that's that. Period. What's your point here?

As for the palantir, it can kill one person when falling from a height. Big deal, when you have many thousand orcs running at you.

[Boromir88]

Sorry, TheAzn, I'm not sure I'm following your recent post. I mean, unless you can please explain the phsyics necessary for how a greater height = greater horizontal distance of the trajectory's endpoint?

I don't see why the Mordor lines could not have been parked out of range, while their own catapults were lobbing in lighter projectiles.

Originally Posted by G55

As for the palantir, it can kill one person when falling from a height. Big deal, when you have many thousand orcs running at you.

The Orthanc stone wasn't, but some of the palantiri were quite large...we're talking about multiple people being necessary to transport them. In fact...I think a palantir-wrecking ball would be quite effective and more useful than their spying advantage.

[Bêthberry]

Welcome to the Downs, TheAzn.

Your thread is obviously intriguing enough that many have replied and you should be quite pleased with that, even if it is hard to catch up.

I have to say, though, that your thread title certainly seems to wave a red flag at many of us and for that reason I shall be on my best behaviour and not reply.

You've made quite a successful entrance.

[Rumil]

As TheAzn says,

an equally powerful stone thrower in an elevated position could shoot further than one at ground level. However, this increase in range can never be more than half the range on the flat, assuming everything is shot at the most efficient 45 degree angle.

Reconstructed medieval designs for trebuchets can shoot a heavy projectile out to about 300 metres, while with modern materials and improvements trebuchets have been designed that can throw a pumpkin 620 metres.

The question remains as to why Sauron's catapults outranged Denethor's. Of course nobody knows the answer, but a possibilities suggests themselves. First of all the obvious conclusion is that Sauron's catapults were just more powerful, but why could't or didn't Minas Tirith make similarly powerful machines?

First, Sauron was a Maia originally of Aule! If anyone knew how to build a war machine, it was Sauron. Maybe Gondor's machines were just not as technically advanced?

Secondly, the medieval trebuchets were very big, typically they were transported in bits to a siege and constructed on site. It may just be that there wasn't sufficient space on Minas Tirith's ramparts and towers to build a huge enough example to outrange Sauron's.

Thirdly, the Gondorians seem to have considered the main use of catapults as battering down walls and were confident that their walls were un-batterable. So it might have made sense to them to build more smaller 'antipersonnel' catapults to take a toll of any force attempting to scale the walls or use siege towers etc. This of course leaves them open to counter-battery fire. But remember they didn't have Sauron's enormous resources, so may have had to settle for a less than ideal artillery arm.

[Aragrax]

Most of the salient points (Sauron's forces did take massive losses but their driving will and sheer numbers made up for it; available materials might have been lacking in Minas Tirith to gear up any more; catapults might not have been available in large numbers or farther up the walls, etc) have already been covered, but two more clear factors in JRRT's favor should be noted:

1) He specifically stated in The Hobbit of orcs (here under the aegis of "goblins"):

"They make no beautiful things, but they make many clever ones. . . Hammers, axes, swords, daggers, pickaxes, tongs, and also instruments of torture, they make very well. . . It is not unlikely that they invented some of the machines that have since troubled the world, especially the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once, for wheels and engines and explosives always delighted them"

Score one for JRRT giving the Mordor forces a very clear tech advantage in the war machine dep't, regardless of foreknowledge of MT's catapults. That foreknowledge, incidentally, might have been good intel, whether magically gained, or simply via spies; Gondor showed no lack of corruptable characters on the mundane side, and Denethor was using the Palantir, likely giving Sauron a glimpse in.

2) The fell beasts were not usable for overflies of the city, as they were not really armored. They would fall to archers easily. Given the importance of his wraiths, Sauron would not risk them to destroy a few paltry catapults.

[Ozban]

First, do not take my post too seriously. I'm rather... hmm... well let's say used for lack of other words. Do not let me spoil this debate, though there's something I must add.

Secondly, the medieval trebuchets were very big, typically they were transported in bits to a siege and constructed on site. It may just be that there wasn't sufficient space on Minas Tirith's ramparts and towers to build a huge enough example to outrange Sauron's.

2) The fell beasts were not usable for overflies of the city, as they were not really armored. They would fall to archers easily. Given the importance of his wraiths, Sauron would not risk them to destroy a few paltry catapults.

Well, these two would be of most importance, from my point of view.

Third would be... a man.

In my lifetime (Which ain't long) I have told a story of cities conquered, or fought for, countless times (let Leggy stand as my witness), (yeah I'm zealous RPG; <DnD> player, but that matters not). Constructing scene with hundreds of thousands involved, you just do not not care about neccesities of physics. Mass. velocity, friction, does that really matter in Middle-Earth? I think it might be the same case with JRRT. He told us about the time, when The World changed. Cataclysm, and no less. Apocalypse, told perhaps by another point of view... But shedding The veil just leads us to another Age. Does it not? And what matters then? Physics? Thought? Conviction? Belief?

Ozban

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Ozban

Constructing scene with hundreds of thousands involved, you just do not not care about neccesities of physics. Mass. velocity, friction, does that really matter in Middle-Earth? I think it might be the same case with JRRT. He told us about the time, when The World changed. Cataclysm, and no less. Apocalypse, told perhaps by another point of view... But shedding The veil just leads us to another Age. Does it not? And what matters then? Physics? Thought? Conviction? Belief?

From Letter 210:

The Lord of the Rings may be a ‘fairy-story’, but it takes place in the Northern hemisphere of this earth: miles are miles, days are days, and weather is weather.

From John D. Rateliff, The History of the Hobbit, The Fifth Phase, Timelines and Itinerary, vi. The Wandering Moon, note 2:

Tolkien of course was not alone in creating this shift: Joyce’s Ulysses, where both of the major characters’ actions can be followed hour-by-hour and street-by-street through a single day on a Dublin city map, pioneered this mode in the realistic novel a decade and a half before Tolkien began work on his magnum opus.

But Rateliff exaggerates. In medieval times Wolfram von Eschenbach in his Parzival is obviously working from a conceptual map of places, exact times, and genealogies and in the immense Prose Lancelot large sections are consistent with one another down to counts of days and agreement with what the current weekday names must be in sections hundreds of pages apart.

See Morgoth’s Ring (HoME X), edited by Christopher Tolkien, Part 5 Myths Transformed. Tolkien’s earlier fantasy writing had contained much that could be just put down a pure fancy, not realistic at all. Accordingly Tolkien must now consider that the tales told in the Silmarillion and the Akallabêth are traditions passed down among Men and mingled with inventions of their own. As Tolkien writes:

The High Eldar living and being tutored by the demiurgic beings must have known, or at least their writers and loremasters must have known, the ‘truth’ (according to their measure of understanding). What we have in the Silmarillion etc. are traditions (especially personalized, and centred upon actors, such as Fëanor) handed on by Men in Núnenor and later in Middle-earrth (Arnor and Gondor); but already far back — from the first association of the Dúnedain and Elf-friends with the Eldar in Beleriand — blended and confused with their own Mannish myths and cosmic ideas.

In short, in intent, The Lord of the Rings does not contain anything intentionally not congruent with what is known today of physics, mass, velocity, and friction.

[TheAzn]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Welcome to the Downs, TheAzn.

Your thread is obviously intriguing enough that many have replied and you should be quite pleased with that, even if it is hard to catch up.

I have to say, though, that your thread title certainly seems to wave a red flag at many of us and for that reason I shall be on my best behaviour and not reply.

You've made quite a successful entrance.

Hey Bethberry. Thank you for your warm welcoming. I apologize for my short reply.

[TheAzn]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Sorry, TheAzn, I'm not sure I'm following your recent post.

Hey Boromir88. I do not think that my new argument should be hard to understand. To gain clarity, please read the posts titled:
My Grand Refutation to the General Counter-Arguments Made Against Me / My Grand Refutation to the General Counter-Arguments Made Against Me(Cont'd) / My Grand Refutation to the General Counter-Arguments Made Against Me (FINISH)

[TheAzn]

Galadriel55, most of your arguments have been refuted already. To see what I mean, read the posts titled:
My Grand Refutation to the General Counter-Arguments Made Against Me / My Grand Refutation to the General Counter-Arguments Made Against Me(Cont'd) / My Grand Refutation to the General Counter-Arguments Made Against Me (FINISH)
Most of my replies on this post will be a reiteration of things that I have either explicitly stated or implied.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Once the Mordor artilleries have fired their explosive loads, quickly followed by the human heads, they've done their job and it doesn't matter who or what hits them. They can go back to Mordor for all the difference it makes.

Every arms of the Gondorians were already in the "ready" state before the siege. If the Gondorians have artilleries, then those could also be used at any moment. The Mordorians, as you know, fired their projectiles in volleys, and the first volley might indeed have surprised the Gondorians. However, the Gondorians should soon fire back before the Mordorians finished firing all of their "special" supply.
Besides artillery, there were also other highly dangerous tools (and creatures) on the Mordorian side, and these are the Oliphaunts, the armored trolls and the siege towers. Being large and heavily protected, all of them are best left for the artillerymen to kill and destroy..

And once again, because you still refuse to listen even after all those times that all those people told you so, Gondor's catapults could not reach the Mordorian ones!!! Could not. That's that.

I am seriously beginning doubt your maturity, Galadriel55. Why are you reaching such hasty conclusions based mostly on the number of people who agree with you? Just because I disagree with the majority here, that does not necessarily mean that I am being stubborn and is purposely shutting out my ears. In fact, I have been doing the complete opposite all along by providing the most evidence and responding to almost every counter-arguments made against me.

I thought that this is a civilized forum that deals mostly with evidence and reason.
The majority of the people against me may repeat the same things over and over, but that does not make their arguments true, especially when they have not provided much evidence.

but the situation for whatever reason was such that whatever they did did not help them in time.

And you would see that my main point, Galadriel55, is that these "situations" are actually plot holes. The Gondorians are not perfect, but they are not below "sub-human" intelligence either.

As for the palantir, it can kill one person when falling from a height. Big deal, when you have many thousand orcs running at you.

The palantir is used only as an example. Any type of stones that weighs around the same as the Palantir of the Orthanc can be used to kill. As for the problem of the thousand orcs, certain stones can break apart to effectively become shrapnels. The great Peter Jackson is wrong when he decides to crush those poor orcs with boulders - small stones are the more likely used projectiles. But he is more correct than Tolkien in the fundamentals; although archery are more effective at killing masses of soldiers, artilleries can also help out in this role, just not by crushing.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by TheAzn

I am seriously beginning doubt your maturity, Galadriel55. Why are you reaching such hasty conclusions based mostly on the number of people who agree with you?

Actually, I'm reaching such hasty and immature conclusions based on Tolkien's words. Whatever weapons the Gondorians had, they did not reach Mordor's lines. Whether they had catapults at all or no, Gondorian warriors could not do any damage to the Mordor army. They stayed out of range. That's that and you can't deny it, however hasty and immature knowing the book sounds to you.

Originally Posted by TheAzn

I thought that this is a civilized forum that deals mostly with evidence and reason.
The majority of the people against me may repeat the same things over and over, but that does not make their arguments true, especially when they have not provided much evidence.

Perhaps we just stand on such different grounds that we will never reach a conclusion that satisfies us both, since for the past while I was thinking to myself that you are repeating the same invalid arguments over and over again. But if it's true the other way around as well, well, I will accept that.

Agree to disagree?

Originally Posted by TheAzn

And you would see that my main point, Galadriel55, is that these "situations" are actually plot holes. The Gondorians are not perfect, but they are not below "sub-human" intelligence either.

How is not having a catapult around make a plot hole? For whatever reason, unknown to us, a reason that we don't need to know, Gondor's artillery, if it existed, did not reach Mordor's lines. Maybe catapults were just invented - by the Mordorian side. Maybe a fire happened in Minas Tirith a couple days before the war and burned down their own artillery. Who knows?

Why does it matter so much to you to prove that Tolkien left a plot hole? And so what if he did?


So agree to disagree?