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#1 |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 78
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You know what staying loyal means right? You better edit that wikipedia article again, because you are clearly wrong.
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#2 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 785
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By "did Sauron stay loyal" what I am asking is this: after the First Age and Morgoth's banishment into the Void, did Sauron remain devoted to Morgoth? Did he actively, intentionally continue to pursue Morgoth's cause? Did he desire to further Morgoth's plans for Morgoth's sake rather than his own? All evidence I can find (and which has been brought up in this thread) suggests that the answer is no. With Morgoth out of the picture he was furthering his own goals, pursuing his own agenda, and the only allegiance he owed was to himself. He was now his own master, not the obedient servant he had been in the First Age, and all the times he exploited the memory of Morgoth and the products of his reign (Orcs and the like) were for the sake of his own power and dominion, not about trying to bring Morgoth's thwarted schemes to fruition.
If there is evidence to the contrary I would of course be very interested to read it! |
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#3 | ||
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 78
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EDIT:So change the wikipedia article ![]() |
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#4 | ||||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 785
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While I agree that because Morgoth was the origin of evil in the world, by being evil Sauron was continuing what Morgoth started, it seems to me that the only way that constitutes loyalty is in an unintentional and metaphysical way. The idea I'm arguing against is that he was actively still devoted to Morgoth, which is to say that he was doing what he did to Morgoth's glory or because he believed Morgoth's cause was right. As we've seen, Morgoth's cause and Sauron's greatly differed in the end, so surely as far as Sauron was concerned his activities in the Second and Third Ages were meant to fulfil his own ambitions. Quote:
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#5 | ||||
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 78
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1. Go back to valinor and ask for pardon or judgement. 2. Stay in middle earth and keep bothering people. Remember even when Morgoth was loose in middle earth and tormented the children the valas did nothing. They do not directly intervene, therefore by staying in middle earth Sauron stayed loyal to Morgoth. Sure one could say he became his own master, but that is ONLY because Morgoth was not in the freckin world. That is like saying if a general is killed in battle the soldier all of a sudden isn't loyal to the dead general because he now has to order himself around and keep fighting the enemy. So Sauron was loyal to Morgoth til the very end. |
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#6 | ||
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,493
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If it is all so obvious, Mumriken, why don't you see The Sil for the interesting info that immediately after the War of Wrath Sauron truly repented of his evil deeds and service to Melkor, and he genuinely begged for his own pardon. Only after a while did he return back to his old ways. Even you would not call that "staying loyal". I'm afraid it is you who does not understand what loyalty means. If you ask me Sauron was never loyal in the first place. It's not in his nature to serve anyone but himself. He followed Morgoth because this service allowed him to rise and to have quite a large chunk of power. He did not actively, physically betray Morgoth, but he would not have died for Morgoth's sake either - which true and strong loyalty does mean. In the later Ages, did Sauron come as Morgoth's servant? No! He named himself Lord in his own right and whatever. After Morgoth could not give Sauron power, Sauron didn't give two cents for what happened to him - and it's not because cents were not created yet. So quit the wikipedia campaign.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#7 | |||||||
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 78
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b)Already told him why he is clearly wrong, you want me to repeat myself to you. Quote:
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![]() AS IF...as I said not being loyal to Morgoth is like being good...it is that black and white. Because morgoth is evil personified, everything bad and evil in the world comes from him alone. Sauron was loyal to Morgoth, he had no other choice but to act on his own in the 2nd and 3rd ages since morgoth was not in the world. Like I don't get how you can go from.... War of Wrath (Morgoth Sauron defeated) Morgoth thrown out of the world and chained Sauron loose Messes around with the children NOT LOYAL??? Your logic is clearly flawed... |
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