Sauron's loyalty after the First Age

[Belegorn]

I agree with Mumriken. Though he may have confused some parts of the legends, I think Sauron was ever faithful to Morgoth, "and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void." [Sil, p. 26] Like Sauron, Morgoth "lay upon his face before theon feet Manwe and sued for pardon" [Sil, p. 52] Of course Morgoth had the more lofty goal of "dominion over Arda" and therefore "let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the earth" and therefore he, "'incarnated' himself (as Morgoth) permanently" as he "attempted to identify himself" with Arda [Sil, p. 399]. This made the Valar moving against him hard due to his connection with Arda. Sauron, however, "was not obliged to spend so much of himself" and he "spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings; for it was the creatures of earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to dominate." [MR, pp. 394-395] Obviously Morgoth hated anything not of his thought, and I do not think Sauron knew the mind of Morgoth and thus his nihilistic bent.

Not even one of the Valar, could read the mind of other 'equal beings':... Melkor remained in a fixed and powerful will to withhold his mind.

However, to me Sauron's greatest loyalty to Morgoth was that he was a shadow of the greater power, Melkor on a smaller scale, thus Morgoth's Ring [Arda] and Sauron's Ring [of power].

[Eäralda Halatiriva]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I agree with Mumriken. Though he may have confused some parts of the legends, I think Sauron was ever faithful to Morgoth, "and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void." [Sil, p. 26] Like Sauron, Morgoth "lay upon his face before theon feet Manwe and sued for pardon" [Sil, p. 52] Of course Morgoth had the more lofty goal of "dominion over Arda" and therefore "let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the earth" and therefore he, "'incarnated' himself (as Morgoth) permanently" as he "attempted to identify himself" with Arda [Sil, p. 399]. This made the Valar moving against him hard due to his connection with Arda. Sauron, however, "was not obliged to spend so much of himself" and he "spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings; for it was the creatures of earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to dominate." [MR, pp. 394-395] Obviously Morgoth hated anything not of his thought, and I do not think Sauron knew the mind of Morgoth and thus his nihilistic bent.



However, to me Sauron's greatest loyalty to Morgoth was that he was a shadow of the greater power, Melkor on a smaller scale, thus Morgoth's Ring [Arda] and Sauron's Ring [of power].

agreed! the question of the medieval principle of loyalty as a ground principle of the monarchical, feudal state, for which the whole of Arda is made available, is altogether a different question than the discourse of naming by which we know these Bodiless, Timeless entities who fell into Shadow. the one entity known to the Incarnates as Sauron seems to prefer the tactic of goeteia in his working out of the strategy of total control over the Little Kingdom; the greater entity known as Melkor (who is the fount of Theological Evil in this legendarium) prefers the tactic of magia (and thus the suffusion of the physical atoms of Arda with his infernal essence).....



....however, let us not forget that the names by which these Bodiless entities are known to us in the official, authoritative texts are given to them by Noldor, the Deep Eldar - and are thus subject to the inevitable bias of natural incarnation: this means that the transcribed, translated meanings of these names convey by definition the biases of the perceiving minds of their aboriginal Elvish authors, who, although they do have better access to a universe outside of four spacetime dimensions, do not seem able to perceive the wider canopy of possible meanings of color, shape, quantity, etc.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

Read the wikipedia article on Sauron and you would know his loyalty. It's quite obvious actually, obviously he is loyal to Melkor.

Originally Posted by Mumriken

You know what staying loyal means right? You better edit that wikipedia article again, because you are clearly wrong.

Originally Posted by Mumriken

Orly...

a)No, I just put it up to point out that he could probably read up on sauron and the answer would be obvious to him.
b)Already told him why he is clearly wrong, you want me to repeat myself to you.

Calm down the rhetoric man. This isn't some place where you win anything by stating in an interesting thread, that other people are wrong. It's actually a topic that may not have a single, clearly defined answer. Make your argument and leave it at that, no need for the rhetoric. And if you are going to disagree with other people's opinions, better come with more than wikipedia.

What I'm wondering, in all of this, is does anyone think Saruman was loyal to Sauron?