Sauron's loyalty after the First Age

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I think some people put forward the argument of Sauron not being loyal since instead of freeing Morgoth he took up the mantle of Dark Lord himself. "Morgoth and his satellite Sauron" [Letter 156] were like mirror images. Do you really think Sauron, even if he worked with Durin's Bane, had the ability to free Morgoth from the punishment of the Valar? I think you ask an impossible and foolhardy task to prove his loyalty.

Personally I think this idea of "bringing Morgoth back" is not only impossible but irrelevant because it has no basis in anything Professor Tolkien wrote, but Sauron could have stayed loyal by carrying on in Morgoth's name. The impression I get is that by and large Sauron did not do so, and when he apparently did do things "in Morgoth's name" it was for the sake of his own power and not in tribute to Morgoth (the establishment of darkness-worshipping religions, for instance). One of Sauron's great lies to Ar-Pharazôn was this concerning the identity of the "Lord of the Darkness":

It is he whose name is not now spoken; for the Valar have deceived you concerning him, putting forward the name of Eru, a phantom devised in the folly of their hearts, seeking to enchain Men in servitude to themselves. For they are the oracle of this Eru, which speaks only what they will. Akallabêth

The truth was the reverse, of course. Morgoth was the "phantom" Sauron devised, seeking to enchain Men in servitude to himself. Yes, Morgoth was a real person, but that fact was irrelevant beyond being a convincing lie due to Sauron's prior affiliation with him.

[Mumriken]

English isn't my first language so excuse my english anyway...

As I think has been made clear from quotations, Sauron did join Morgoth initially in admiration for Morgoth's ambitions and methods, but as Morgoth's motivations waned towards all-consuming destructive hatred perhaps Sauron's loyalty did as well.

Perhaps but remember Morgoth wasn't a nihilist at all times. Once he also wanted to rule over others. Also if by the end of his time in middle earth morgoth was a nihilist and truly wanted to destroy everything. Then there are two questions we must ask ourself:

1. Why did he not do so?
2. Why did not Sauron do this?

Is it possible that if Morgoth wanted to destroy everything, the reason Sauron did not follow in his footsteps was because he was unable do so? Sauron was far from as powerful as Morgoth, that is why he created the rings to control all others. Unlike Morgoth who could actually challenge all others and win! So I think it's a bit unfair that you say that in order for Sauron to have been loyal to Morgoth he must have done these things:

-Tried to free Morgoth (Impossible)
-Tried to destroy everything (Impossible for him)

You make it impossible for him to have been loyal to morgoth by saying that.

What's more, he even shows disdain for Morgoth - as some of our quotes from Professor Tolkien established, it seems that Sauron considered Morgoth to be a failure and set up Morgoth as a false god in Númenor despite knowing full well that Morgoth was powerless and that Eru was the one true God.

That is not a sign of being disloyal at all to Morgoth but to Eru.

Professor Tolkien seems to think that really it was a matter of convenience, not loyalty, but it's still worth musing upon. I suppose Sauron could have invented any phantom for the Númenoreans to worship, but can we imagine, perhaps, that as presumably well-educated people steeped in the lore of the First Age that the Númenoreans were well aware of Sauron's prior affiliation with Morgoth and that made propounding Morgoth, rather than some made-up figure, a more believable lie?

Loyal to himself...who else to be loyal towards? Morgoth was in the void...that he forced the numenoreans to worship Morgoth is another action that suggests he still was loyal.

Personally I think this idea of "bringing Morgoth back" is not only impossible but irrelevant because it has no basis in anything Professor Tolkien wrote, but Sauron could have stayed loyal by carrying on in Morgoth's name. The impression I get is that by and large Sauron did not do so, and when he apparently did do things "in Morgoth's name" it was for the sake of his own power and not in tribute to Morgoth (the establishment of darkness-worshipping religions, for instance). One of Sauron's great lies to Ar-Pharazôn was this concerning the identity of the "Lord of the Darkness":

Yes it's impossible for him to bring him back...
Yeah when he apparently did so it was for his own sake...whose other sake would it be for?? Morgoth was outside the world remember...you almost make it sound that the only way Sauron would be able to stay loyal to Morgoth would be to create a statue of him and start worshipping him and forcing others to do so. That would be stupid and Morgoth would agree. I still hold this view and your post has so far only encouraged me to do so.

Sauron is more loyal to Morgoth than he is to the valar by being loyal to himself.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

Morgoth was outside the world remember...you almost make it sound that the only way Sauron would be able to stay loyal to Morgoth would be to create a statue of him and start worshipping him and forcing others to do so. That would be stupid and Morgoth would agree.[/B]

That is indeed (albeit rather facetiously phrased) what I would consider still being loyal, no matter how "stupid" it sounds, because it would mean that Sauron was carrying on in tribute and devotion to Morgoth, not for the sake of his own power and glory. Just because it seems stupid doesn't mean it's an implausible motivation. That's what a loyal follower would do, even though the master was dead or absent. You yourself said:

Originally Posted by Mumriken

Loyal to himself...who else to be loyal towards? Morgoth was in the void...that he forced the numenoreans to worship Morgoth is another action that suggests he still was loyal.

Assuming Sauron did establish this religion out of loyalty to Morgoth, this is exactly the "stupid" kind of loyalty you are talking about. Clearly by presenting this piece of evidence you yourself recognise that it is not unreasonable behaviour. The question is: was he encouraging the Númenoreans to worship Morgoth because he actually believed it would do any good or because it was what Morgoth would have wanted, or did he do it for the sake of his own power?

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Let's say this is the case, that his loyalty was based on carrying on in Morgoth's name. Now, keeping this train of thought, what about when Melkor was imprisoned for all those long years, the 3 Ages in Mandos' Halls? Did Sauron carry on in Morgoth's name or did he hide out for his own sake like many of Morgoth's other servants did? Was he punished for his disloyalty when Morgoth returned?

Morgoth's Ring tells us that Sauron did indeed stay loyal to Melkor during the latter's imprisonment. He worked on rebuilding Angband, breeding Orcs and various other projects Melkor had started before his capture.

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Sauron building his own bases of power and seeking servants and the like to do his will does not necessarily mean he turned against Morgoth does it?

No, it doesn't necessarily mean he turned against Morgoth, but it doesn't necessarily mean he was still serving him either.
I guess we could simplify this discussion by analysing this question: did Sauron establish the Melkor-religion among the Númenoreans because he genuinely believed that Morgoth was God and could give blessings to the Númenoreans, in real tribute to Morgoth (or his memory) and because it was what Morgoth would have wanted? Or, on the other hand, did he do it simply out of convenience because it was the most convincing lie for Morgoth's former lieutenant to tell?

[Mumriken]

That is indeed (albeit rather facetiously phrased) what I would consider still being loyal, no matter how "stupid" it sounds

Lol, only an idiot would do that. If that is the only way sauron could be loyal then men and elves would conquer middle earth the orcs would be slain and long gone. No I'll rephrase that...you're the stupid one for saying that is the only way Sauron could be loyal to Morgoth.

Assuming Sauron did establish this religion out of loyalty to Morgoth, this is exactly the "stupid" kind of loyalty you are talking about.

No because later on it led to the destruction of Numenor.

The question is: was he encouraging the Númenoreans to worship Morgoth because he actually believed it would do any good or because it was what Morgoth would have wanted, or did he do it for the sake of his own power?

There is no question to ask...you don't get it buddy.

No, it doesn't necessarily mean he turned against Morgoth, but it doesn't necessarily mean he was still serving him either.

How could he serve Morgoth if morgoth was not in the world???????????????

I guess we could simplify this discussion by analysing this question: did Sauron establish the Melkor-religion among the Númenoreans because he genuinely believed that Morgoth was God and could give blessings to the Númenoreans, in real tribute to Morgoth (or his memory) and because it was what Morgoth would have wanted? Or, on the other hand, did he do it simply out of convenience because it was the most convincing lie for Morgoth's former lieutenant to tell?

He convinced them to worship Morgoth so that they would turn against the Valar...he did this in service of Morgoth AND himself. You say the only way he could be loyal is to put on a chastity belt and attract people to some stone temple where they would sit and pray to Morgoth all day and night...you don't think it's stupid but it indeed is...

I hope I don't have to paste this again...

Sauron is more loyal to Morgoth than he is to the valar by being loyal to himself.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

How could he serve Morgoth if morgoth was not in the world???????????????

Originally Posted by Mumriken

he did this in service of Morgoth AND himself

So he in fact could serve Morgoth even though Morgoth was not in the world?
But I do appreciate this idea that Sauron's plans and his loyalty to Morgoth were not necessarily mutually exclusive. However:

Originally Posted by Mumriken

No I'll rephrase that...you're the stupid one for saying that is the only way Sauron could be loyal to Morgoth.

I take objection to this. I joined this forum to have a friendly discussion about Professor Tolkien's work, not to be called "stupid" just for having a different opinion to someone else.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

Ok let's point out where you're stupid then...

Can I just stress again how much I take objection to being called stupid? Making personal insults against me doesn't make your case any stronger.

However what you could have done to show your appreciation for your husband, is to rape 500 people then burn down a police station and not get caught! You could drug the officials down and try to make them rape for you!!!

As much as I find this whole hypothetical scenario incredibly distasteful I understand what you mean. The point is: was Sauron doing all his evil things to show his appreciation for Morgoth? If he was, I would consider that loyal. However, I think he had more selfish motivations. Where is the evidence, actual quotes from Professor Tolkien's work, which says that Sauron did these things out of appreciation for Morgoth? He even qualifies the human sacrifice religion in Númenor as being probably founded out of convenience, not genuine appreciation. Incidentally, I don't consider generally evil actions to be "in appreciation" for Morgoth just because all evil ultimately derives from Morgoth. We need to distinguish between deliberate and incidental. If Sauron did what he did for Morgoth, deliberately wanting to do it because it's what Morgoth would have wanted or as tribute to him then I would consider that loyal. But if his activities just happened to coincide with what would have pleased Morgoth or what Morgoth would have wanted, but showing appreciation for Morgoth didn't actually play any role in Sauron's decision-making then I would not consider that to be loyal. I wouldn't consider it to be especially disloyal either. I'm just trying to muse on whether Sauron did what he did because he thought Morgoth would have approved. It's like after someone dies you do something "because it's what they would have wanted." It seems to me that Sauron was fairly neutral about Morgoth at best, and at worst considered him to be a failure who'd lacked the willpower and strength to bring about the order Sauron craved. Do you think Sauron was doing this stuff because it's what Morgoth would have wanted?
But because I want a healthy discussion I thought I'd provide some more examples for Morgoth's lingering influence in Sauron's life. The Appendices to The Lord of the Rings at least twice name Sauron as "Sauron, servant of Morgoth" in reference to events that occurred in the Second and Third Ages. Sauron is at least still recognised as Morgoth's underling after Morgoth's own defeat. There is also the note from Letter 183 we've mentioned which I admit to finding very intriguing:

By the end of the Second Age he assumed the position of Morgoth's representative. By the end of the Third Age he claimed to be Morgoth returned.

Evidently Morgoth was still an important figure in terms of enabling Sauron's control of much of Middle-earth. In regards to "the position of Morgoth's representative" does Professor Tolkien strictly mean in regards to the Númenoreans or did he do the same elsewhere he held dominion? Did the Men of Rhûn and the Harad know enough to distinguish between Morgoth and Sauron? Was Sauron able to pass himself off as Morgoth in the Third Age because the Men of Darkness worshipped a nebulous "Lord of the Dark", a role which Sauron could assume?
May I just say however that in regards to your analogy I do find the idea of Sauron being Morgoth's "wife" to be rather amusing.

[Boromir88]

I'd hate to see what has been an insightful thread and brought up many different perspectives be closed down.

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[Nerwen]

Mumriken, I have no idea why *this* particular topic, of all things, should be such a sore point with you, or whether this is just how you normally react to disagreement– but either way it's gone far enough. As a longstanding member of this site, I can tell you that the way you've been behaving is just not on here. Kindly tone it down.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Sauron could have stayed loyal by carrying on in Morgoth's name. The impression I get is that by and large Sauron did not do so,

Let's say this is the case, that his loyalty was based on carrying on in Morgoth's name. Now, keeping this train of thought, what about when Melkor was imprisoned for all those long years, the 3 Ages in Mandos' Halls? Did Sauron carry on in Morgoth's name or did he hide out for his own sake like many of Morgoth's other servants did? Was he punished for his disloyalty when Morgoth returned?

Originally Posted by Zigûr

when he apparently did do things "in Morgoth's name" it was for the sake of his own power and not in tribute to Morgoth (the establishment of darkness-worshipping religions, for instance).

He came to Morgoth's side due to the draw of power and the power he wielded under Morgoth.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

One of Sauron's great lies to Ar-Pharazôn was this concerning the identity of the "Lord of the Darkness":

Morgoth perpetuated lies among his servants all the time. All to his ends. Apparently from the Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth Morgoth lied about himself similarly to the Edain. He said, "I am the Giver of Gifts" [MR, p. 346] He had them take him as Lord rather than Eru.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Morgoth was the "phantom" Sauron devised, seeking to enchain Men in servitude to himself. Yes, Morgoth was a real person, but that fact was irrelevant beyond being a convincing lie due to Sauron's prior affiliation with him.

Certainly Morgoth was not in Middle Earth at this time? Sauron building his own bases of power and seeking servants and the like to do his will does not necessarily mean he turned against Morgoth does it?