Sewers/toilets in middle earth? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Rumil · 08-04-2012, 04:51 PM

If you'll indulge me, I'd like to copy a rather old post of mine here from this threadhttp://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...ghlight=toilet . Ignore the last sentence, was referring to Downsian controversies of the time,

Khazad Khazi

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ah, at last a thread that gets down to the nitty gritty, the real experience of Middle Earth living, no more shall Downers blithely cry 'I would love to move to Rivendell' without a caveat regarding Elrond's plumbing arrangements.

As Farrar rightly points out, little attention has been given by Tolkien or his commentators to such an important aspect of everyday Middle Earth life. Few mentions occur in the legendarium, and those are ambiguous or tangential, but it must be here that we begin our fundamental examination. We must also draw on the records of historically analagous civilizations for much of our investigation, but must be wary of pitfalls. Assumptions regarding flushing mechanisms, ballcocks and U-bends may land us in deep and dangerous water. Finally I would like to indulge in further speculation involving the origin of Gandalf's fireworks and the infamous blasting fires of Orthanc and highlight my admiration for Tolkien's 'unexplored vistas', which are as significant in this respect as in many others.

To begin, we have the canonical occurence of a 'bathroom' at Bag End, however, combined with historical usage and, of course, the bath incident at Crickhollow, doubt is cast upon the utility of such a term in our quest. It is Crickhollow that provides the clue, who indeed can forget the cry of

Quote:

Sing Hey! for a bath at the end of the day

which immediately brings visions of the three baths and the room swimming with 'water hot' following Pippin's antics. This, we must conclude, is what is meant by 'bathroom' in Shire terms, merely a room containing one or more baths. To this day it is unusual for older houses in Britain to have a toilet in the same room as the bath, as such a practice was considered both unseemly and unhealthy in early Victorian times, at least until the great strides forward made by that giant of the porcelain facility, Thomas Crapper, whose name will undoubtedly resonate down the years.

Therefore we must look to history for information, lest our search bog down completely. The Shire was primarily a rural area, without the population density and concomitant pressures associated with city life. In many rural areas sanitation consisted of a hole in the ground, within an associated outhouse, often brick-built, located at some distance from the main dwelling. We know that hobbits, although preferring to live in holes or 'smials', were anciently accustomed to constructing free-standing sheds and workshops, so this seems the most likely solution for the Shire. There is a problem with the lack of convenience of this system at night, during inclement weather, or illness, and traditionally the gozunder, or po, was the answer to such difficulties.

It is with towns and cities that the stickier problem is faced. One can debate the relative technological sophistication of Minas Tirth or Edoras, so it becomes unclear exactly what sort of systems were in use. In the most unsophisticated towns of the past waste was simply dumped into the street and disposed of via street cleaners or open sewers. This was option much used in medieval and indeed renaissance times, especially in castles where the effluvium discharged into the moat from rooms equipped with garderobes, where the clothes of the nobility were kept such that the attendant ammoniacal vapour deterred moths. While such practices continued late into European history, witness, for example the lucky escape from the defenestration of Prague, it is, however, difficult to tally such practices with the conventional gleaming white image of Minas Tirith.

A better solution was the use of privies, as in the countryside, but with the addition of a night-soil service, an unfortunate person paid to clean and empty the privy or septic tank. Finally we have the running water option, toilets have been with us since at least 2500 BC, notably in the cities of ancient India, China, Egypt and Persia. These generally consisted of a seat of ease above a continually-flowing open water channel, and could even be communal as is shown by extant Roman military installations at Hadrian's Wall and many other locations. We may have a hint that Edoras reached this level of hygenic sophistication -

Quote:

Beside the way in a stone channel a stream of clear water flowed, sparkling and chattering.

It could well have provided, via side channels, the necessary flow. In that case one would imagine that Minas Tirth had superior facilities, probably encompassing an entirely piped water supply, though it would be fruitless to speculate on the possible use of porcelain thrones, U-bends and the like.

The varied cultures of Middle Earth also must show different levels of toiletry sophistication. The Lakemen were uniquely situated above a suitable medium for diluting their effluvia. The dwarves could no doubt make use of long drops and crevasses should they need, but a clue is given in Gloin's desciption of the progress made at Erebor in the provision of underground canals, probably suitable for quite sophisticated arrangements. The dark side of toiletry behaviour also rears its ugly head, orcs often refer to their enemies, and each other, as 'filth'. Tolkien admitted to toning down orcish expletives, but the meaning permeates through nonetheless. Shelob is a case of the dreadful depths to which Sauron's servants and allies could fall. Her abode was noisome and reeking from the accumulated filth of her age-long occupation, clearly hygiene was not an issue for such a depraved creature.

Having surveyed the likely facilities, some further strand of enquiry suggests itself. Gunpowder was originally made form charcoal, sulphur and saltpetre, saltpetre of course being rich in the nitrates necessary to accelerate the explosion and being mostly derived from human and animal wastes. In the days of black powder the job of night soil man became profitable with supply of saltpetre to the armaments industry, truly a case of 'where there's muck there's brass'. Was this how Gandalf and Saruman found the ingredients for their rockets and blasting charges?

In the end, of course Tolkien teases our thirst for further detail but leaves the specifics vague. Middle Earth hygiene, like the Blue Wizards and Balrog wings must therefore belong to the realm of supposition and speculation. Who indeed can envisage the facilities of wondrous Gondolin or those employed by fair lady Galadriel? The author does, however, wonder if there is any further information in the Letters or indeed if there is any relevant Biblical applicabilty, even allegory, pertaining to this problem but leaves such undertakings, and the attendant problems of canonicity, to the pens of those more expert than he.

Tuor in Gondolin · 08-05-2012, 02:31 PM

In addition to the general use of Roman-type plumbing I briefly
alluded to, consider the placing of some Middle-earth cities on
geographical features conducive to moving effluvia. Minas Tirith
and Minas Morgol on the lower sides of mountains, with gravity
assisted streams to carry materials to nearby Anduin and the ocean.
Even Edoras has a middling stream going through the town/citadel
to the Anduin. Ditto Lorien (and anyway, you'd think giant trees
would be in need of many nutrients---of course, how elves living
near treetops (like Galadriel and hubby disposed of stuff, well, it
does bring them "down to earth" a bit, as it were).

Which brings up the issue of Gondolin. They had to have a pretty sophisticated
system to dispose of materiel out of the plain and towards Sirion, SO
WHY DIDN'T THEY USE IT TO ESCAPE. Come on, couldn't have been
that much worse then going through a London Sewer.

Oh, and the green leaf above is an air freshener.

leapofberen · 08-22-2012, 07:45 AM

Despite allusions to a washroom/bathroom at the Prancing Pony in the Fellowship and perhaps some other places I cannot think of at the moment, I would think that pondering too much about these things would take away the bliss of Tolkien's story. I mean, we KNOW it is there...especially among Men and Hobbits. Elves? Who can say? They ate otherworldly food (lembas) given to them by the gods, healed quickly, were generally mightier and hardier and wiser than the other races, so who is to say Elves went to the bathroom like mortal Men?

Not that exposing Middle Earth's earthiness would necessarily take away, (hobbits are particularly anyhow) but dwelling on these things would certainly take away from the high tone that Tolkien sets ("...and then Frodo slipped away to use the toilet. Now a hobbit toilet is quite like ours is today...") Well, MAYBE...if it was describing something ABOUT the toilet that was relevant to Hobbitdom...not just for the sake of saying , "By the way, Hobbits poop too and here is where it goes to in the Shire..." Not for the sake of satisfying (I apologize ahead of time) some of our more baser and rational curiosities.

Tolkien does delve into such things as the intimate relations of Elves in other writings, and this is almost too much (in my small opinion); it comes close to bringing Elves, particularly Elves, down to a human level when they are meant to be representative of humanity before a Fall; as such, higher beings. Allusions leading us to dwell otherwise, even briefly, would certainly be in the realm of Potty: of describing in too much detail, bathroom, sewer, and waste. By implication, certainly it was THERE in many places...most certainly I could imagine it with Hobbits, Dwarves... But even alluding to one of the Eldar dropping a load and then describing where it goes? There is some rule that staunchly disallows this on the tip of my tongue, yet I cannot think of what it is called at the moment...we all have wondered such things as readers though.

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 08-26-2012, 05:49 AM

I've read very few books of any kind that went into the sewerage arrangements in any sort of detail. Apart from Burrahobbit's blog, the only example I can think of is that of the journals of Jean Hérouard, personal physician to Louis XIII of France, in which - inter alia - His Majesty's bowel movements are faithfully recorded. I don't recall seeing that particular work on a best seller list, but I may simply not have been paying attention. I contend that this is no coincidence, since most people grow out of their infantile interest in excreta by the time they leave primary school, rapidly relegating the process to the same category as breathing or blinking: things which are parts of everyday life, but not worthy of note unless they betray emotion. I suppose it's possible that the Mouth of Sauron needed a change of underwear after returning from his parley with Gandalf, Aragorn et al, but his fear was adequately expressed in other ways, so there was no need to mention it.

As a subject to use in mockery of Tolkien discussion fora, of course, this one is ideal, since it can be used to demonstrate that we'll devote thousands of words to discussing night soil. If I were irretrievably idiotic and juvenile, this is the topic that I would probably use to make that point.

Morthoron · 08-26-2012, 03:01 PM

Do you think the Dwarves sent their effluvia into the bowels of the earth? After all, they did refer to Khazad-dum as "Moria", didn't they?

Ummm...sorry. Just exercising my "infantile interest in excreta" (nice alliteration, by the way).

blantyr · 08-26-2012, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Ummm...sorry. Just exercising my "infantile interest in excreta" (nice alliteration, by the way).

It still might be more fertile a discussion than balrog wings...

Inziladun · 08-26-2012, 05:17 PM

You know, this to me is just one of those "TMI" topics that I don't like associating with Middle-earth.
After all, if Minas Tirith followed 14th Century practice, they'd likely have been channeling their effluent into the Anduin. Not an image Tolkien would have been likely envisaging.

Since we're accepting talking trees, undead wraiths, and spiders that live for thousands of years, I can deal with just going with the idea that bodily waste in Arda just magically disappears, leaving a "sweet scent of flowers".

blantyr · 08-26-2012, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Since we're accepting talking trees, undead wraiths, and spiders that live for thousands of years, I can deal with just going with the idea that bodily waste in Arda just magically disappears, leaving a "sweet scent of flowers".

Maybe the elves work that way. Can't see it that way for the Orcs. Not sure we want to work our way through Treebeard's long list assigning scents...

Faramir Jones · 08-31-2012, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inziladun

You know, this to me is just one of those "TMI" topics that I don't like associating with Middle-earth.
After all, if Minas Tirith followed 14th Century practice, they'd likely have been channeling their effluent into the Anduin. Not an image Tolkien would have been likely envisaging.

You got me thinking that those Orcs and Men in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields who were driven into the Anduin suffered a particularly smelly fate...

08-04-2012, 04:51 PM	#1
Rumil Sage & Onions Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Britain Posts: 894	Khazad Khazi II If you'll indulge me, I'd like to copy a rather old post of mine here from this threadhttp://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...ghlight=toilet . Ignore the last sentence, was referring to Downsian controversies of the time, Khazad Khazi -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ah, at last a thread that gets down to the nitty gritty, the real experience of Middle Earth living, no more shall Downers blithely cry 'I would love to move to Rivendell' without a caveat regarding Elrond's plumbing arrangements. As Farrar rightly points out, little attention has been given by Tolkien or his commentators to such an important aspect of everyday Middle Earth life. Few mentions occur in the legendarium, and those are ambiguous or tangential, but it must be here that we begin our fundamental examination. We must also draw on the records of historically analagous civilizations for much of our investigation, but must be wary of pitfalls. Assumptions regarding flushing mechanisms, ballcocks and U-bends may land us in deep and dangerous water. Finally I would like to indulge in further speculation involving the origin of Gandalf's fireworks and the infamous blasting fires of Orthanc and highlight my admiration for Tolkien's 'unexplored vistas', which are as significant in this respect as in many others. To begin, we have the canonical occurence of a 'bathroom' at Bag End, however, combined with historical usage and, of course, the bath incident at Crickhollow, doubt is cast upon the utility of such a term in our quest. It is Crickhollow that provides the clue, who indeed can forget the cry of Quote: Sing Hey! for a bath at the end of the day which immediately brings visions of the three baths and the room swimming with 'water hot' following Pippin's antics. This, we must conclude, is what is meant by 'bathroom' in Shire terms, merely a room containing one or more baths. To this day it is unusual for older houses in Britain to have a toilet in the same room as the bath, as such a practice was considered both unseemly and unhealthy in early Victorian times, at least until the great strides forward made by that giant of the porcelain facility, Thomas Crapper, whose name will undoubtedly resonate down the years. Therefore we must look to history for information, lest our search bog down completely. The Shire was primarily a rural area, without the population density and concomitant pressures associated with city life. In many rural areas sanitation consisted of a hole in the ground, within an associated outhouse, often brick-built, located at some distance from the main dwelling. We know that hobbits, although preferring to live in holes or 'smials', were anciently accustomed to constructing free-standing sheds and workshops, so this seems the most likely solution for the Shire. There is a problem with the lack of convenience of this system at night, during inclement weather, or illness, and traditionally the gozunder, or po, was the answer to such difficulties. It is with towns and cities that the stickier problem is faced. One can debate the relative technological sophistication of Minas Tirth or Edoras, so it becomes unclear exactly what sort of systems were in use. In the most unsophisticated towns of the past waste was simply dumped into the street and disposed of via street cleaners or open sewers. This was option much used in medieval and indeed renaissance times, especially in castles where the effluvium discharged into the moat from rooms equipped with garderobes, where the clothes of the nobility were kept such that the attendant ammoniacal vapour deterred moths. While such practices continued late into European history, witness, for example the lucky escape from the defenestration of Prague, it is, however, difficult to tally such practices with the conventional gleaming white image of Minas Tirith. A better solution was the use of privies, as in the countryside, but with the addition of a night-soil service, an unfortunate person paid to clean and empty the privy or septic tank. Finally we have the running water option, toilets have been with us since at least 2500 BC, notably in the cities of ancient India, China, Egypt and Persia. These generally consisted of a seat of ease above a continually-flowing open water channel, and could even be communal as is shown by extant Roman military installations at Hadrian's Wall and many other locations. We may have a hint that Edoras reached this level of hygenic sophistication - Quote: Beside the way in a stone channel a stream of clear water flowed, sparkling and chattering. It could well have provided, via side channels, the necessary flow. In that case one would imagine that Minas Tirth had superior facilities, probably encompassing an entirely piped water supply, though it would be fruitless to speculate on the possible use of porcelain thrones, U-bends and the like. The varied cultures of Middle Earth also must show different levels of toiletry sophistication. The Lakemen were uniquely situated above a suitable medium for diluting their effluvia. The dwarves could no doubt make use of long drops and crevasses should they need, but a clue is given in Gloin's desciption of the progress made at Erebor in the provision of underground canals, probably suitable for quite sophisticated arrangements. The dark side of toiletry behaviour also rears its ugly head, orcs often refer to their enemies, and each other, as 'filth'. Tolkien admitted to toning down orcish expletives, but the meaning permeates through nonetheless. Shelob is a case of the dreadful depths to which Sauron's servants and allies could fall. Her abode was noisome and reeking from the accumulated filth of her age-long occupation, clearly hygiene was not an issue for such a depraved creature. Having surveyed the likely facilities, some further strand of enquiry suggests itself. Gunpowder was originally made form charcoal, sulphur and saltpetre, saltpetre of course being rich in the nitrates necessary to accelerate the explosion and being mostly derived from human and animal wastes. In the days of black powder the job of night soil man became profitable with supply of saltpetre to the armaments industry, truly a case of 'where there's muck there's brass'. Was this how Gandalf and Saruman found the ingredients for their rockets and blasting charges? In the end, of course Tolkien teases our thirst for further detail but leaves the specifics vague. Middle Earth hygiene, like the Blue Wizards and Balrog wings must therefore belong to the realm of supposition and speculation. Who indeed can envisage the facilities of wondrous Gondolin or those employed by fair lady Galadriel? The author does, however, wonder if there is any further information in the Letters or indeed if there is any relevant Biblical applicabilty, even allegory, pertaining to this problem but leaves such undertakings, and the attendant problems of canonicity, to the pens of those more expert than he. __________________ Rumil of Coedhirion Last edited by Rumil; 08-04-2012 at 04:56 PM.

08-05-2012, 02:31 PM	#2
Tuor in Gondolin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Southeast Pennsylvania Posts: 3,651	In addition to the general use of Roman-type plumbing I briefly alluded to, consider the placing of some Middle-earth cities on geographical features conducive to moving effluvia. Minas Tirith and Minas Morgol on the lower sides of mountains, with gravity assisted streams to carry materials to nearby Anduin and the ocean. Even Edoras has a middling stream going through the town/citadel to the Anduin. Ditto Lorien (and anyway, you'd think giant trees would be in need of many nutrients---of course, how elves living near treetops (like Galadriel and hubby disposed of stuff, well, it does bring them "down to earth" a bit, as it were). Which brings up the issue of Gondolin. They had to have a pretty sophisticated system to dispose of materiel out of the plain and towards Sirion, SO WHY DIDN'T THEY USE IT TO ESCAPE. Come on, couldn't have been that much worse then going through a London Sewer. Oh, and the green leaf above is an air freshener. __________________ The poster formerly known as Tuor of Gondolin. Walking To Rivendell and beyond 12,555 miles passed Nt./Day 5: Pass the beacon on Nardol, the 'Fire Hill.'

08-22-2012, 07:45 AM	#3
leapofberen Pile O'Bones Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 14	Not Sim City... Despite allusions to a washroom/bathroom at the Prancing Pony in the Fellowship and perhaps some other places I cannot think of at the moment, I would think that pondering too much about these things would take away the bliss of Tolkien's story. I mean, we KNOW it is there...especially among Men and Hobbits. Elves? Who can say? They ate otherworldly food (lembas) given to them by the gods, healed quickly, were generally mightier and hardier and wiser than the other races, so who is to say Elves went to the bathroom like mortal Men? Not that exposing Middle Earth's earthiness would necessarily take away, (hobbits are particularly anyhow) but dwelling on these things would certainly take away from the high tone that Tolkien sets ("...and then Frodo slipped away to use the toilet. Now a hobbit toilet is quite like ours is today...") Well, MAYBE...if it was describing something ABOUT the toilet that was relevant to Hobbitdom...not just for the sake of saying , "By the way, Hobbits poop too and here is where it goes to in the Shire..." Not for the sake of satisfying (I apologize ahead of time) some of our more baser and rational curiosities. Tolkien does delve into such things as the intimate relations of Elves in other writings, and this is almost too much (in my small opinion); it comes close to bringing Elves, particularly Elves, down to a human level when they are meant to be representative of humanity before a Fall; as such, higher beings. Allusions leading us to dwell otherwise, even briefly, would certainly be in the realm of Potty: of describing in too much detail, bathroom, sewer, and waste. By implication, certainly it was THERE in many places...most certainly I could imagine it with Hobbits, Dwarves... But even alluding to one of the Eldar dropping a load and then describing where it goes? There is some rule that staunchly disallows this on the tip of my tongue, yet I cannot think of what it is called at the moment...we all have wondered such things as readers though. Last edited by leapofberen; 08-22-2012 at 07:53 AM.

08-26-2012, 05:49 AM	#4
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	Water Closets and Waste Pipes of Gondor? I've read very few books of any kind that went into the sewerage arrangements in any sort of detail. Apart from Burrahobbit's blog, the only example I can think of is that of the journals of Jean Hérouard, personal physician to Louis XIII of France, in which - inter alia - His Majesty's bowel movements are faithfully recorded. I don't recall seeing that particular work on a best seller list, but I may simply not have been paying attention. I contend that this is no coincidence, since most people grow out of their infantile interest in excreta by the time they leave primary school, rapidly relegating the process to the same category as breathing or blinking: things which are parts of everyday life, but not worthy of note unless they betray emotion. I suppose it's possible that the Mouth of Sauron needed a change of underwear after returning from his parley with Gandalf, Aragorn et al, but his fear was adequately expressed in other ways, so there was no need to mention it. As a subject to use in mockery of Tolkien discussion fora, of course, this one is ideal, since it can be used to demonstrate that we'll devote thousands of words to discussing night soil. If I were irretrievably idiotic and juvenile, this is the topic that I would probably use to make that point. __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

08-26-2012, 03:01 PM	#5
Morthoron Curmudgeonly Wordwraith Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits Posts: 2,515	Do you think the Dwarves sent their effluvia into the bowels of the earth? After all, they did refer to Khazad-dum as "Moria", didn't they? Ummm...sorry. Just exercising my "infantile interest in excreta" (nice alliteration, by the way). __________________ And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision.

08-26-2012, 05:17 PM	#7
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,039	You know, this to me is just one of those "TMI" topics that I don't like associating with Middle-earth. After all, if Minas Tirith followed 14th Century practice, they'd likely have been channeling their effluent into the Anduin. Not an image Tolkien would have been likely envisaging. Since we're accepting talking trees, undead wraiths, and spiders that live for thousands of years, I can deal with just going with the idea that bodily waste in Arda just magically disappears, leaving a "sweet scent of flowers". __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

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