Sauron's loyalty after the First Age

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

Morgoth was outside the world remember...you almost make it sound that the only way Sauron would be able to stay loyal to Morgoth would be to create a statue of him and start worshipping him and forcing others to do so. That would be stupid and Morgoth would agree.[/B]

That is indeed (albeit rather facetiously phrased) what I would consider still being loyal, no matter how "stupid" it sounds, because it would mean that Sauron was carrying on in tribute and devotion to Morgoth, not for the sake of his own power and glory. Just because it seems stupid doesn't mean it's an implausible motivation. That's what a loyal follower would do, even though the master was dead or absent. You yourself said:

Originally Posted by Mumriken

Loyal to himself...who else to be loyal towards? Morgoth was in the void...that he forced the numenoreans to worship Morgoth is another action that suggests he still was loyal.

Assuming Sauron did establish this religion out of loyalty to Morgoth, this is exactly the "stupid" kind of loyalty you are talking about. Clearly by presenting this piece of evidence you yourself recognise that it is not unreasonable behaviour. The question is: was he encouraging the Númenoreans to worship Morgoth because he actually believed it would do any good or because it was what Morgoth would have wanted, or did he do it for the sake of his own power?

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Let's say this is the case, that his loyalty was based on carrying on in Morgoth's name. Now, keeping this train of thought, what about when Melkor was imprisoned for all those long years, the 3 Ages in Mandos' Halls? Did Sauron carry on in Morgoth's name or did he hide out for his own sake like many of Morgoth's other servants did? Was he punished for his disloyalty when Morgoth returned?

Morgoth's Ring tells us that Sauron did indeed stay loyal to Melkor during the latter's imprisonment. He worked on rebuilding Angband, breeding Orcs and various other projects Melkor had started before his capture.

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Sauron building his own bases of power and seeking servants and the like to do his will does not necessarily mean he turned against Morgoth does it?

No, it doesn't necessarily mean he turned against Morgoth, but it doesn't necessarily mean he was still serving him either.
I guess we could simplify this discussion by analysing this question: did Sauron establish the Melkor-religion among the Númenoreans because he genuinely believed that Morgoth was God and could give blessings to the Númenoreans, in real tribute to Morgoth (or his memory) and because it was what Morgoth would have wanted? Or, on the other hand, did he do it simply out of convenience because it was the most convincing lie for Morgoth's former lieutenant to tell?

[Mumriken]

That is indeed (albeit rather facetiously phrased) what I would consider still being loyal, no matter how "stupid" it sounds

Lol, only an idiot would do that. If that is the only way sauron could be loyal then men and elves would conquer middle earth the orcs would be slain and long gone. No I'll rephrase that...you're the stupid one for saying that is the only way Sauron could be loyal to Morgoth.

Assuming Sauron did establish this religion out of loyalty to Morgoth, this is exactly the "stupid" kind of loyalty you are talking about.

No because later on it led to the destruction of Numenor.

The question is: was he encouraging the Númenoreans to worship Morgoth because he actually believed it would do any good or because it was what Morgoth would have wanted, or did he do it for the sake of his own power?

There is no question to ask...you don't get it buddy.

No, it doesn't necessarily mean he turned against Morgoth, but it doesn't necessarily mean he was still serving him either.

How could he serve Morgoth if morgoth was not in the world???????????????

I guess we could simplify this discussion by analysing this question: did Sauron establish the Melkor-religion among the Númenoreans because he genuinely believed that Morgoth was God and could give blessings to the Númenoreans, in real tribute to Morgoth (or his memory) and because it was what Morgoth would have wanted? Or, on the other hand, did he do it simply out of convenience because it was the most convincing lie for Morgoth's former lieutenant to tell?

He convinced them to worship Morgoth so that they would turn against the Valar...he did this in service of Morgoth AND himself. You say the only way he could be loyal is to put on a chastity belt and attract people to some stone temple where they would sit and pray to Morgoth all day and night...you don't think it's stupid but it indeed is...

I hope I don't have to paste this again...

Sauron is more loyal to Morgoth than he is to the valar by being loyal to himself.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

How could he serve Morgoth if morgoth was not in the world???????????????

Originally Posted by Mumriken

he did this in service of Morgoth AND himself

So he in fact could serve Morgoth even though Morgoth was not in the world?
But I do appreciate this idea that Sauron's plans and his loyalty to Morgoth were not necessarily mutually exclusive. However:

Originally Posted by Mumriken

No I'll rephrase that...you're the stupid one for saying that is the only way Sauron could be loyal to Morgoth.

I take objection to this. I joined this forum to have a friendly discussion about Professor Tolkien's work, not to be called "stupid" just for having a different opinion to someone else.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

Ok let's point out where you're stupid then...

Can I just stress again how much I take objection to being called stupid? Making personal insults against me doesn't make your case any stronger.

However what you could have done to show your appreciation for your husband, is to rape 500 people then burn down a police station and not get caught! You could drug the officials down and try to make them rape for you!!!

As much as I find this whole hypothetical scenario incredibly distasteful I understand what you mean. The point is: was Sauron doing all his evil things to show his appreciation for Morgoth? If he was, I would consider that loyal. However, I think he had more selfish motivations. Where is the evidence, actual quotes from Professor Tolkien's work, which says that Sauron did these things out of appreciation for Morgoth? He even qualifies the human sacrifice religion in Númenor as being probably founded out of convenience, not genuine appreciation. Incidentally, I don't consider generally evil actions to be "in appreciation" for Morgoth just because all evil ultimately derives from Morgoth. We need to distinguish between deliberate and incidental. If Sauron did what he did for Morgoth, deliberately wanting to do it because it's what Morgoth would have wanted or as tribute to him then I would consider that loyal. But if his activities just happened to coincide with what would have pleased Morgoth or what Morgoth would have wanted, but showing appreciation for Morgoth didn't actually play any role in Sauron's decision-making then I would not consider that to be loyal. I wouldn't consider it to be especially disloyal either. I'm just trying to muse on whether Sauron did what he did because he thought Morgoth would have approved. It's like after someone dies you do something "because it's what they would have wanted." It seems to me that Sauron was fairly neutral about Morgoth at best, and at worst considered him to be a failure who'd lacked the willpower and strength to bring about the order Sauron craved. Do you think Sauron was doing this stuff because it's what Morgoth would have wanted?
But because I want a healthy discussion I thought I'd provide some more examples for Morgoth's lingering influence in Sauron's life. The Appendices to The Lord of the Rings at least twice name Sauron as "Sauron, servant of Morgoth" in reference to events that occurred in the Second and Third Ages. Sauron is at least still recognised as Morgoth's underling after Morgoth's own defeat. There is also the note from Letter 183 we've mentioned which I admit to finding very intriguing:

By the end of the Second Age he assumed the position of Morgoth's representative. By the end of the Third Age he claimed to be Morgoth returned.

Evidently Morgoth was still an important figure in terms of enabling Sauron's control of much of Middle-earth. In regards to "the position of Morgoth's representative" does Professor Tolkien strictly mean in regards to the Númenoreans or did he do the same elsewhere he held dominion? Did the Men of Rhûn and the Harad know enough to distinguish between Morgoth and Sauron? Was Sauron able to pass himself off as Morgoth in the Third Age because the Men of Darkness worshipped a nebulous "Lord of the Dark", a role which Sauron could assume?
May I just say however that in regards to your analogy I do find the idea of Sauron being Morgoth's "wife" to be rather amusing.

[Boromir88]

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[Mumriken]

You seem to make much out of the; Morgoth wanted chaos and destruction and Sauron wanted order. One could say that Sauron's being and Morgoth's being are slightly different. Before time Sauron was a servant of Aule the smith. But unlike Aule Sauron wanted things for himself. I discussed this in another thread but Aule is really the moral absolute in Arda since he created the dwarves then was willing to give them away. He created much and gave it all away. Not wanting to own things is at least in Tolkien's universe moral excellence. But Sauron wanted to own things and therefore turned to Morgoth because he admired his power and saw that through him he could order things and make himself OWN things. He wanted power and got it through Morgoth.

Now Morgoth didn't want things, he was already the most powerful being in Arda and had no need for things. He wanted to destroy what didn't derive from his music. Now Morgoth was eventually thrown out of the world. Now here Sauron had two choices to give up his power and control and return to Valinor. Or stay true to who he is or wanted to be...of course he is selfish and I bet if he could snap his fingers and all morgoth's power would be his he would. Howerver when Morgoth was captured and thrown out of the world I don't think Sauron was very pleased. All beings in our world and in the fictional are attached to someone. We need others...it's clear than Sauron needed Morgoth to become what he wanted to become. To be powerful and have control over others and order things to his liking.

So yes at the time of Morgoth's capture Sauron was loyal to him. Not out of fear but out of admiration for Morgoth and his ways of doing things. He stayed loyal to the very end and as far as I understand it he asked for pardon out of fear...for he saw the power of the valas. But now comes the big suprise, he didn't abandon Morgoth's ways. He deceived Numenor into worshipping Morgoth and later sail towards Valinor and later be crushed by the valas. TWO PARTS:

-Order
-Morgoth's way of achieving order

The only part of his being that isn't "loyal" to morgoth is that unlike morgoth he wanted order. However he chose Morgoth's ways of achieving order. Now that is being loyal to Morgoth in my opinion, since he could not free morgoth. Achieving his sense of order while destroying numenor and killing I don't know how many elves dwarves and men. He is being more loyal to Morgoth than to any other being in Arda by doing this. Loyal to himself?? What does that even mean, he even called himself the second Morgoth. Now if that isn't being loyal to morgoth I don't know what is. He would rather have Morgoth at his side than being alone that is for sure. The only reason he made the rings was because he could not win by force alone...while morgoth could.

I find the encounter Sauron's spirit had with Aule in lord of the rings most interesting. You know when Aule plays around with the ring? It's like Aule laughs at his old pupil...anyway if in your world the only way Sauron could show his loyalty towards sauron is to force slaves into worshipping him while elven cities are being built and slowly moving towards to east...then I'm not sure what you're thinking with. I think I'm done with this thread, I feel like I'm repeating myself now to no effect.

[Zigûr]

To me, following someone's methods does not constitute loyalty. Faithfulness to their cause or leadership does. In my opinion, judging by the Professor's exploration of Sauron and Morgoth's motives, Sauron shared Morgoth's methods but did not employ them in faithfulness to Morgoth or Morgoth's cause, but rather in the pursuit of his own self-interest. When it comes to loyalty, it appears to me that the intentions are crucial. Whether or not he would prefer to have Morgoth still around is pure conjecture which conflicts substantially with Professor Tolkien's suggestions that Sauron ultimately considered Morgoth to be a failure and viewed his absence as a great opportunity for personal aggrandisement.
Nonetheless I agree that the discussion appears to have run its course and I apologise if I have been repetitious.
Sadly an issue of semantics was not really what I was expecting to be the issue of this discussion. Also, I apologise that this thread has been a source of any difficulty.

[Nerwen]

Mumriken, I have no idea why *this* particular topic, of all things, should be such a sore point with you, or whether this is just how you normally react to disagreement– but either way it's gone far enough. As a longstanding member of this site, I can tell you that the way you've been behaving is just not on here. Kindly tone it down.