Discriminatory in Valinor? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Mumriken · 08-07-2012, 12:11 AM

Well it's called the undying lands. Also elves will remain in Arda (world) til the end while men will pass beyond it's borders at death. They are called the visitors, and since their visit is so brief they aren't allowed to go to the undying lands. It was morgoth who instilled fear of death in man. It was a gift from illuvatar just like immortality was a gift to the elves. However because of Morgoth men envy the ever lasting elves, and Sauron pushed them over the edge making them sail towards Valinor. Which ****ed off god...

Lollipop010900 · 08-07-2012, 12:43 AM

Ah... now i get it! So its all Morgoth and Sauron's fault. As always. The story of Middle Earth (cut short); Morgoth annoys the Elves. Morgoth snuffs it. Sauron annoys the Elves and Men. Sauron snuffs it.

Mithalwen · 08-07-2012, 01:01 AM

Not exactly. It is believed to be the fault of Morgoth and Sauron that Men regard the gift of men as a doom. But going Valinor would not make Men immortal. They would still die. They are the undying lands because those there are already immortal, they are not made immortal by going. So Aragorn going wouldn't work even if it were allowed. Frodo, Sam and Gimli would have all died.

The fates of men and elves are different. Elves are immortal in the sense that they last as long as the world but they do not know what if anything will happen to them after whereas men are not bound to the fate of the world.

Mumriken · 08-07-2012, 01:17 AM

Yeah so one can imagine what a big honour it was for Bilbo, Frodo and Gimli to go there. As far as I know the only non elves who has been there.
EDIT: Must have been approved by god.

Alfirin · 08-07-2012, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mumriken

Yeah so one can imagine what a big honour it was for Bilbo, Frodo and Gimli to go there. As far as I know the only non elves who has been there.
EDIT: Must have been approved by god.

Well, the Gamgee family maintains that Samwise also took sail to the Undying Lands (after Rose died) since he had also been (albiet briefly) a ringbearer. And I think one of the big heroes of men got accorded the honor back in the first or second age. But I agree, it is rare.
You actually bring up a question that has been bugging me for quite a while; just what ARE the criterion to get that singular honor. Frodo and Bilbo, of course were Ringbearers (as was Sam) and one could argue that getting to spend thier final days healing in Tol Erresea was a sort of reward for all the pain they had gone through; . And of course, Arwen all but tells Frodo he can go in her stead (as if in giving up her Elvish immortality to marry Aragorn, she had left and empty berth on the boat to be filled). So all of them have some sort of "right" to take the trip (Not to mention that the ship that takes Frodo and Bilbo is also carrying Elrond, Galdriel, and Gandalf, probably the only three people with enough status and respect in Elfdom that thier word is all that is needed (i.e. "I say it's OK, so it's OK")
But Gimli is a bit more vauge; it almost seems like he gets in on a much lower standard. He is of course a member of the Fellowship, but if that is all that was needed, Merry and Pippin should have had the opportunity (I know Merry and Pippin were dead by the time Legolas set sail, but they could have been offered a berth on one of the earlier elven ships sailing out, as Sam presumably was if the Gamgee tradition was true.) He is of course Legolas's best friend, but that seems an awfully casual basis for getting such a great honor. I imagine that there were probably other elves who were close frieds with dwarves back in the fist and second ages (when Elf-Dwarf relationships were not so strained).You could argue that Gimli's great deed was healing some of the divide between elf and dwarf. And of course, Gimli has his deep love of Gladriel, but he can't be the only one whose ever fallen in love with her (Faramir's comments at the dinner at the falls seem to indicate that pretty much ANY mortal who gazes on Galadriel risks gettting caught in her beauty) I have no question Legolas had every right to invite Gimli to sail with him (it's his boat, he can sail with whomever he wants) but a part of me seems to think that Legolas may have been overstepping his perogative in his assumption that Gimi could get the same deal as Frodo and the other mortal sailors.

Bellamira · 08-07-2012, 07:44 AM

That is a very good question. Why was Gimli allowed to go? Does anyone have the exact passage where it describes this?

Is it feasible that all of the Fellowship members could have gone over, had they so desired?

Valinor was created when Melkor destroyed the lands of the world the first time around. The Valar built it as their home and fortified it against Melkor's evil in the East. I think it is possible that the few non-elves who were allowed to live there, including Gimli, were allowed to do so because of their great role in defending Middle-earth against Melkor's, and then Sauron's, evil.

The Valar wanted to protect the First Born from the evil that Melkor created, so they brought them to live in Valinor. As they were going to be around until the world ended, the Valar wanted them to have the beauty and harmony that they saw in Iluvatar's vision, not the destruction of Melkor. Men, able to leave the world, had no need of such protection, because their souls could fine solace anywhere they wanted after death.

Although Melkor was thrown from the world, the Valar are still willing to bring the First Born over to Aman. So we must assume that they considered Sauron's threat to the First Born to be just as potent as Melkor's was.

Therefore, I argue that any being, including hobbits and dwarves, that were directly and hugely tormented by Sauron's evil, would have been accorded a place in Aman for the rest of their time remaining. Their souls would have been tortured in such a way that even upon death they would find no solace, unless they could first be healed in Aman.

Gimli could not have been tormented nearly so much as the ring-bearers. But he was part of the Fellowship, and around the ring for a long time while Frodo bore it, and he spent time away from his people, fighting with Men for the msot part to rid Sauron's evil from the world. I think that simply being a willing volunteer, under no oath, in the Fellowship to destroy evil once and for all, accords him the honor of Valinor.

Why didn't Merry and Pippin go? I think they were young enough and resilient enough that they did not need the healing of the Valar. I think they were perfectly contented to live out their lives in the idyllic peace of the Shire.

I think Gimli was changed enough from his experience, more so than probably any other of his people, and so he was accorded this special honor.

Another argument: The Dwarves were never really given a destiny in Iluvatar's plans. Perhaps it was deemed time, by the Valar and Iluvater, to bring an emissary over to Aman to represent his race in judgement, to see what would become of their spirits after the ending of the world.

Alfirin · 08-07-2012, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bellamira

Why didn't Merry and Pippin go? I think they were young enough and resilient enough that they did not need the healing of the Valar. I think they were perfectly contented to live out their lives in the idyllic peace of the Shire.

I think Gimli was changed enough from his experience, more so than probably any other of his people, and so he was accorded this special honor.

Possilbly, though they'd have to be REALLY resilient. Next to Frodo and Sam, Merry and Pippin probably had the most traumatic experiances during the war. Merry almost died from his attempt to kill the Witch King. And, thanks to the Palantir, Pippin may be the only Hobbit (besides Frodo, assuming the eye he saw in Gladriel's pool was Sauron's actual eye) in history to ever looked Sauron directly in the face ; that would probably have haunted him for the rest of his days. Actually if one was going by trauma alone, Gimli was probably the bottom man on the totem pole; even Legolas would have had to deal with what he saw behind him on the Paths of the Dead.

Mithalwen · 08-07-2012, 09:20 AM

It isn't quite presented as fact in the Appendices.I don't know if further mention is made in HoME to clarify.

In the tale of years in LOTR it says 1541SR Legolas built a grey ship in Ithilien, and sailed...over Sea. And with him it is said, went Gimli the Dwarf". However there is a note at the end of "of Durin's folk which purports to be a late note in the Red Book.
"We have hear tell that Legolas took Gimli ....if this is true then it is strange indeed that a Dwarf should be willing to leave Middle Earth ..or that the Lords of the West should permit it. But it is said that Gimli went also ...to see ..Galadriel and it may be that she, being mighty among the Eldar, obtained this grace for him. More cannot be said of this matter".

So the "translator conceit" allows Tolkien not to give a definitive answer. The note on sources in the Prologue increases vagueness. The Red book was copied annotated and what became the appendices gathered from various sources long after the event (the time of Peregrin's great grandson). I think Gimli would have been 262 when Aragorn died which is a good age for a dwarf - he may have returned to Erebor to die or it may be that the grace was granted him because he had so little time left.

Other than Tuor who is a special case and Amandil whose fate isn't known, Frodo is the only mortal with much natural life span remaining who was admitted to the Undying lands and he was a special case. He had pretty much died after the Morgul attack in the sense of living fully in the world of Middle Earth. Remember Gandalf's thought about him becoming like a glass full of clear light and noticing a transparency about him in Riendell? Which itself was soon after explaining why Glorfindel became a shining figure as he faced the NAzgul - that he has dwellt in the Blessed Realm and lives at once on both sides. Tolkien's decision/realisation that Glorfindel of Gondolin and Glorfindel of Rivendell were the same means that Rivendell Glorfindel had died and been sent back to aid the struggle against Sauron. Another exceptional situation and the juxtaposition maybe not a coincidence.

08-07-2012, 12:43 AM	#2
Lollipop010900 Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 47	Ah... now i get it! So its all Morgoth and Sauron's fault. As always. The story of Middle Earth (cut short); Morgoth annoys the Elves. Morgoth snuffs it. Sauron annoys the Elves and Men. Sauron snuffs it. __________________ “That's the only place in all the lands we've ever heard of that we don't want to see any closer; and that's the one place we're trying to get to! And that's just where we can't get." - Sam

08-07-2012, 01:01 AM	#3
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	Not exactly. It is believed to be the fault of Morgoth and Sauron that Men regard the gift of men as a doom. But going Valinor would not make Men immortal. They would still die. They are the undying lands because those there are already immortal, they are not made immortal by going. So Aragorn going wouldn't work even if it were allowed. Frodo, Sam and Gimli would have all died. The fates of men and elves are different. Elves are immortal in the sense that they last as long as the world but they do not know what if anything will happen to them after whereas men are not bound to the fate of the world. __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

08-07-2012, 01:17 AM	#4
Mumriken Banned Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 78	Yeah so one can imagine what a big honour it was for Bilbo, Frodo and Gimli to go there. As far as I know the only non elves who has been there. EDIT: Must have been approved by god. Last edited by Mumriken; 08-07-2012 at 01:21 AM.

08-07-2012, 09:20 AM	#8
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	It isn't quite presented as fact in the Appendices.I don't know if further mention is made in HoME to clarify. In the tale of years in LOTR it says 1541SR Legolas built a grey ship in Ithilien, and sailed...over Sea. And with him it is said, went Gimli the Dwarf". However there is a note at the end of "of Durin's folk which purports to be a late note in the Red Book. "We have hear tell that Legolas took Gimli ....if this is true then it is strange indeed that a Dwarf should be willing to leave Middle Earth ..or that the Lords of the West should permit it. But it is said that Gimli went also ...to see ..Galadriel and it may be that she, being mighty among the Eldar, obtained this grace for him. More cannot be said of this matter". So the "translator conceit" allows Tolkien not to give a definitive answer. The note on sources in the Prologue increases vagueness. The Red book was copied annotated and what became the appendices gathered from various sources long after the event (the time of Peregrin's great grandson). I think Gimli would have been 262 when Aragorn died which is a good age for a dwarf - he may have returned to Erebor to die or it may be that the grace was granted him because he had so little time left. Other than Tuor who is a special case and Amandil whose fate isn't known, Frodo is the only mortal with much natural life span remaining who was admitted to the Undying lands and he was a special case. He had pretty much died after the Morgul attack in the sense of living fully in the world of Middle Earth. Remember Gandalf's thought about him becoming like a glass full of clear light and noticing a transparency about him in Riendell? Which itself was soon after explaining why Glorfindel became a shining figure as he faced the NAzgul - that he has dwellt in the Blessed Realm and lives at once on both sides. Tolkien's decision/realisation that Glorfindel of Gondolin and Glorfindel of Rivendell were the same means that Rivendell Glorfindel had died and been sent back to aid the struggle against Sauron. Another exceptional situation and the juxtaposition maybe not a coincidence. __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

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08-07-2012, 12:11 AM	#1
Mumriken Banned Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 78	Well it's called the undying lands. Also elves will remain in Arda (world) til the end while men will pass beyond it's borders at death. They are called the visitors, and since their visit is so brief they aren't allowed to go to the undying lands. It was morgoth who instilled fear of death in man. It was a gift from illuvatar just like immortality was a gift to the elves. However because of Morgoth men envy the ever lasting elves, and Sauron pushed them over the edge making them sail towards Valinor. Which ****ed off god...

08-07-2012, 07:44 AM	#6
Bellamira Newly Deceased Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 3	That is a very good question. Why was Gimli allowed to go? Does anyone have the exact passage where it describes this? Is it feasible that all of the Fellowship members could have gone over, had they so desired? Valinor was created when Melkor destroyed the lands of the world the first time around. The Valar built it as their home and fortified it against Melkor's evil in the East. I think it is possible that the few non-elves who were allowed to live there, including Gimli, were allowed to do so because of their great role in defending Middle-earth against Melkor's, and then Sauron's, evil. The Valar wanted to protect the First Born from the evil that Melkor created, so they brought them to live in Valinor. As they were going to be around until the world ended, the Valar wanted them to have the beauty and harmony that they saw in Iluvatar's vision, not the destruction of Melkor. Men, able to leave the world, had no need of such protection, because their souls could fine solace anywhere they wanted after death. Although Melkor was thrown from the world, the Valar are still willing to bring the First Born over to Aman. So we must assume that they considered Sauron's threat to the First Born to be just as potent as Melkor's was. Therefore, I argue that any being, including hobbits and dwarves, that were directly and hugely tormented by Sauron's evil, would have been accorded a place in Aman for the rest of their time remaining. Their souls would have been tortured in such a way that even upon death they would find no solace, unless they could first be healed in Aman. Gimli could not have been tormented nearly so much as the ring-bearers. But he was part of the Fellowship, and around the ring for a long time while Frodo bore it, and he spent time away from his people, fighting with Men for the msot part to rid Sauron's evil from the world. I think that simply being a willing volunteer, under no oath, in the Fellowship to destroy evil once and for all, accords him the honor of Valinor. Why didn't Merry and Pippin go? I think they were young enough and resilient enough that they did not need the healing of the Valar. I think they were perfectly contented to live out their lives in the idyllic peace of the Shire. I think Gimli was changed enough from his experience, more so than probably any other of his people, and so he was accorded this special honor. Another argument: The Dwarves were never really given a destiny in Iluvatar's plans. Perhaps it was deemed time, by the Valar and Iluvater, to bring an emissary over to Aman to represent his race in judgement, to see what would become of their spirits after the ending of the world.