Rings of Power talk!

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

P.S. Sauron certainly did have the One Ring in Numenor. In Letter #211 Tolkien states, “He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans.” And in Letter #131 Tolkien reiterates that Sauron (now in spirit form) wisked the Ring away from the ruin of Numenor: "I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring [from Numenor], upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended."

Very interesting, I had thought that only Sauron's physical form was damaged? I did not know that Sauron was in spirit form when he left the ruin in Numenor. If he was able to pick up his master ring in spirit form why did he not do this again when he lost the ring for the 2nd time?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Radtech51

Interesting idea but how does this fit into the end of the Lord of the Rings story when Frodo could plainly see now all three rings of power? I got the impression that Frodo could see them because they were void of power?

In Lórien Galadriel pretty clearly intimates that Frodo is mainly able to see Nenya because he was a Ring-bearer. Also, he had been wounded by the Witch-king's knife, which had basically put Frodo on the border of the real and the shadow worlds. Is it notable there that none of the other hobbits mention the Three?

Originally Posted by Radtech51

Very interesting, I had thought that only Sauron's physical form was damaged? I did not know that Sauron was in spirit form when he left the ruin in Numenor. If he was able to pick up his master ring in spirit form why did he not do this again when he lost the ring for the 2nd time?

The circumstances were different.
At the destruction of Númenor, Sauron's body was indeed destroyed, and his spirit went back over Sea to Middle-earth. The spirit itself was undamaged. There is no knowing how quickly he was then able to reincarnate, but I suspect it was rather rapid.

At the end of the Second Age, when the One was cut from Sauron's finger, his "inner" self was injured by the loss of the Ring; it was taken from him physically, and that greatly weakened him, so that he it was all he could do to escape and seek a place where he could recuperate, gradually building up enough will and power to re-embody.

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

In Lórien Galadriel pretty clearly intimates that Frodo is mainly able to see Nenya because he was a Ring-bearer. Also, he had been wounded by the Witch-king's knife, which had basically put Frodo on the border of the real and the shadow worlds. Is it notable there that none of the other hobbits mention the Three?

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Reply: You make an excellent point, but however if the three rings were void of power at this time wouldn't anyone be able to see them?
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The circumstances were different.
At the destruction of Númenor, Sauron's body was indeed destroyed, and his spirit went back over Sea to Middle-earth. The spirit itself was undamaged. There is no knowing how quickly he was then able to reincarnate, but I suspect it was rather rapid.

At the end of the Second Age, when the One was cut from Sauron's finger, his "inner" self was injured by the loss of the Ring; it was taken from him physically, and that greatly weakened him, so that he it was all he could do to escape and seek a place where he could recuperate, gradually building up enough will and power to re-embody.

That makes sense, thanks for your insight on this my friend.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Radtech51

but however if the three rings were void of power at this time wouldn't anyone be able to see them?

But the rings weren't devoid of power at that time (when the Fellowship was in Lorien).

They lost their power only when the ONE was unmade. We're not told whether everyone could see the rings after that (except, perhaps, the reference to Gandalf wearing the third ring when he is met at Mithlond to take ship West at the end - tho it is not said explictly that all could "see" it, only that he had it), but that could simply be because the chroniclers saw no need to comment on three characters wearing rings.

The Rings were generally not talked about (especially among men who mostly wouldn't even know about them). In fact, to most people a ring on Elrond's or Galadriel's finger (even if they COULD see it) would be nothing special, either to notice or comment on: just a ring, a piece of jewelry, much like what many other Lords and princes may have worn as a matter of course. The kind of thing one can see but not "see" (unless you are an "observer" - like Sherlock Holmes or Hercule Poirot or Ellery Queen or Adrian Monk ).

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

But the rings weren't devoid of power at that time (when the Fellowship was in Lorien).

They lost their power only when the ONE was unmade. We're not told whether everyone could see the rings after that (except, perhaps, the reference to Gandalf wearing the third ring when he is met at Mithlond to take ship West at the end - tho it is not said explictly that all could "see" it, only that he had it), but that could simply be because the chroniclers saw no need to comment on three characters wearing rings.

The Rings were generally not talked about (especially among men who mostly wouldn't even know about them). In fact, to most people a ring on Elrond's or Galadriel's finger (even if they COULD see it) would be nothing special, either to notice or comment on: just a ring, a piece of jewelry, much like what many other Lords and princes may have worn as a matter of course. The kind of thing one can see but not "see" (unless you are an "observer" - like Sherlock Holmes or Hercule Poirot or Ellery Queen or Adrian Monk ).

Thanks for the information but I was referring to the end of the book when Frodo could see all three rings. I'll assume everyone could have seen them because they were all void of power at that time? Unless the three kept some small amount of power since Sauron never had anything to do with them?

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Radtech51

Thanks for the information but I was referring to the end of the book when Frodo could see all three rings. I'll assume everyone could have seen them because they were all void of power at that time? Unless the three kept some small amount of power since Sauron never had anything to do with them?

Ah, right. I see now. So many intertwined treads of thought in this topic I got confused. Sorry about that.

To address your thoughts about the Rings at Mithlond...

I'm only speculating here, but I wonder how much of the hiding of the rings is an innate, automatic function of the rings themselves (ie, go on finger = go invisible) and how much is an Art of the wearers (Elves & Maia) used to aid in keeping the secret.

We already know (from "many Partings" in RoTK) that Elves and Maia can communicate without talking, by their thoughts flashing back and forth between them (similar to what we might call telepathy) so it seems feasible that they might have an art or way for diverting peoples "NOTICE" from things like their ring.

For example, in Lorien when Frodo saw the Ring and Galadriel asks Sam "Did you see my ring?", Sam's response isn't a confused "WHAT ring? You don't have a ring. I can see your hand and there isn't any ring on it." Rather it was a simple "no, I didn't" - suggesting that, perhaps, once Galadirel mentioned it he "could" see it (at least physically see it, he still may not have comprehended what it really was).

Which raises at least a <possibility> that, at the end, in Mithlond, the Rings could be seen - less because of their being shorn of power, than because there was no longer any reason for their wearers to try and KEEP them hidden from the notice or awareness of other beings.

And, even so, to some (like Merry & Pippen) the presence of a Ring on an Elven Lord's (or Gandalf's) fnger would be no big deal - whether it were (or had been) a ring of power or not. "Nobles wear rings, big deal" could have been as far as the thought would go. Especially since the **BIG** deal at that time was that Frodo was going away - for good.
Frodo, being a ringbearer, was more likely to be sensitive to the presence of such little things as "rings". Much like a person who was once traumatized by a man with a mole on his left cheek, might thereafter be far more like than other people to notice men who happen to have moles on their left cheek.

Again, this is just a speculation. It "seems" reasonable and feasible to me, and it "might" be close to the truth - but then again it might not be.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Radtech51

You make an excellent point, but however if the three rings were void of power at this time wouldn't anyone be able to see them?

An argument against that is the fact that in all the time the bearers of the Three were with the hobbits in Minas Tirith after Sauron's fall, and on the road back to the North, there is no mention of anyone seeing the Rings, but again, Frodo.

....the grey-cloaked people of Lórien rode towards the mountains; and those who were going to Rivendell sat on the hill and watched, until there came out of the gathering mist a flash; and then they saw no more. Frodo knew that Galadriel had held aloft her ring in token of farewell.

LOTR Many Partings

If the Three were visible at that time due to the loss of the One, surely it wouldn't have been only Frodo to recognize the source of the "flash" from Galadriel.

The idea that the Three were not constantly worn by the bearers, either before or after Sauron's fall, would to me explain much.

x/d with Puddleglum

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

An argument against that is the fact that in all the time the bearers of the Three were with the hobbits in Minas Tirith after Sauron's fall, and on the road back to the North, there is no mention of anyone seeing the Rings, but again, Frodo.
If the Three were visible at that time due to the loss of the One, surely it wouldn't have been only Frodo to recognize the source of the "flash" from Galadriel.

Possibly. But then, too, weren't the only times when her ring was *ever* mentioned after the Fall when the narrative (or her actions) specifically brought it up: when she holds it up in farewell (partings) and when all three rings pass away to the West (Havens)? Only two times (did I miss any?). I'm not sure I'd put too much meaning on the fact that in the two cases (a small sample-size), only Frodo (the primary source of record for those events - where he was eyewitness) is explicitly highlighted as seeing.

Especially since he doesn't (in these reports) say no one else DID see or understand - only stays silent on the point. And, we can be fairly certain that Gandalf & Elrond (who were present in each case) "could" see Galadriel's ring (being ring wearers themselves) - AND understand that the flash was her holding up the ring. Yet, that is also not mentioned in the record.

Frodo, as the author of this part of the record, and an eye-witness to the events in it, could well have felt no particular need to give a complete list of who else could and could not see the ring, or understand the flash. His mind was on other things.


BTW (and my apologies for not knowing this) but - what does "x/d" signify. I know lol, rotfl, gtr, imo, and so on - but (sadly) not x/d ???

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

Possibly. But then, too, weren't the only times when her ring was *ever* mentioned after the Fall when the narrative (or her actions) specifically brought it up: when she holds it up in farewell (partings) and when all three rings pass away to the West (Havens)? I'm not sure I'd put too much meaning on the lack of reference to it.

I know there's nothing definite. It just strikes me that only Frodo is ever mentioned as seeing the Three.

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

BTW (and my apologies for not knowing this) but - what does "x/d" signify. I know lol, rotfl, gtr, imo, and so on mean - but (sadly) not x/d ???

It just indicates a cross-post with someone else.

[Radtech51]

....the grey-cloaked people of Lórien rode towards the mountains; and those who were going to Rivendell sat on the hill and watched, until there came out of the gathering mist a flash; and then they saw no more. Frodo knew that Galadriel had held aloft her ring in token of farewell.

I had always thought that the three rings of power were slowly loosing their power over time once the one ring was destroyed but not all at once. I had thought that Galadriel's final display of power from her ring of power to Frodo was a parting reminder to him about their talk and about the rings of power coming to and end.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Radtech51

I had always thought that the three rings of power were slowly loosing their power over time once the one ring was destroyed but not all at once. I had thought that Galadriel's final display of power from her ring of power to Frodo was a parting reminder to him about their talk and about the rings of power coming to and end.

This is one of the many puzzlements in The Lord of the Rings. At that time Frodo is unaware that Elrond and Gandalf were bearers of two of the three Elven-rings and presumably only knows that Galadriel is a ring-bearer, yet the text says:

But at length all was said, and they parted again for a while, until it was time for the Three Rings to pass away.

Of course since Frodo later knows to set out with Sam to meet with Galadriel and Elrond on September 21st of the year 1421 Shire Reckoning, he presumably has received messages from the Elves about their planned return over the Seas and learned that Bilbo is to go with them, and he himself may go with them if he wishes, and that to Sam also permission is given to at last depart. It may well be that among these communications Frodo had been informed that Elrond and Gandalf were bearers of two of the Elven-rings but that he had not explicitly said so in his writing. It is only explicitly said so in the last pages of The Lord of the Rings which must be derived from Sam’s writing.

Then of course Tolkien is to be imagined as himself retelling the story in the third person, at which point the phase “until it was time for the Three rings to pass away” may be understood to have entered the tale.

When and at what point the three Elven-rings lost all their power is not told. Indeed, they may still have some power in them again when last seen. The story does not tell, just as it does not tell whether they may not have become completely powerless immediately upon the destruction of the One Ring.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by jallanite

At that time Frodo is unaware that Elrond and Gandalf were bearers of two of the three Elven-rings

Well, we don't actually even "know" that. The record that became LOTR was, ostensibly, written by the Hobbits (primarily Frodo) and it doesn't explicitly "mention" the location of the other two rings before this, but the record wasn't essentially ABOUT the location of the three rings and there would have been no driving reason for Frodo to report it even if he had known (as interesting as it may have been to *US* to read it ).

So, maybe he did know, maybe he didn't.

My personal belief is that he "did" know. But that's only because he had become professionally aware of Rings (as a ring-bearer and having seen one of the rings earlier) and so would be more likely than most people (like Merry or Pippin) to "connect the dots" and conclude that "that Blue stoned ring on Elrond's hand may well be one of the Three", etc.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Radtech51

I had always thought that the three rings of power were slowly loosing their power over time once the one ring was destroyed but not all at once. I had thought that Galadriel's final display of power from her ring of power to Frodo was a parting reminder to him about their talk and about the rings of power coming to and end.

To me, it makes more sense that the Three immediately became powerless upon the loss of the One.
They were "tied" to it after all; there was no delineation made between the influence of the One upon the Three, and that it exerted upon the wearers of the Nine and the Seven. With the One, Sauron could know and govern the thoughts of all of them.
When the One was destroyed, immediate effects were observed. Sauron's spirit was irreparably maimed, Barad-dûr, made with the One, collapsed, and the Nazgûl fell from the sky in ruin. Since those events were not gradual, why would the Three's fading be any different?

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

To me, it makes more sense that the Three immediately became powerless upon the loss of the One.
They were "tied" to it after all; there was no delineation made between the influence of the One upon the Three, and that it exerted upon the wearers of the Nine and the Seven. With the One, Sauron could know and govern the thoughts of all of them.
When the One was destroyed, immediate effects were observed. Sauron's spirit was irreparably maimed, Barad-dûr, made with the One, collapsed, and the Nazgûl fell from the sky in ruin. Since those events were not gradual, why would the Three's fading be any different?

You might be right about the Three immediately becoming powerless after the one ring was destroyed, however if they were then how did Galadriel create that last parting flash of light from her ring in display to Frodo? It's true she was a powerful sorceress of sorts so I suppose creating a flash of light would not prove to difficult for her, but still it makes you wonder.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

In Lórien Galadriel pretty clearly intimates that Frodo is mainly able to see Nenya because he was a Ring-bearer. Also, he had been wounded by the Witch-king's knife, which had basically put Frodo on the border of the real and the shadow worlds. Is it notable there that none of the other hobbits mention the Three?

Frodo was a ring-bearer and also one who had seen the Eye. Galadriel mentioned seeing the Eye, which might be important. Also, Galadriel had just used Nenya to create the illusion of a mighty queen. It was only after that minor bit of theatrical magic that Frodo spotted her ring.

Galadriel asked Sam whether he had seen her ring, and he responded no, he had seen a star shining through her finger. She also mentioned that Elrond had not been permitted to speak of it, meaning, I think, speak of the three rings. This seems to me like an unnecessary leak to Frodo and Sam of where another of the Three was.

At the time, the third ring was in Moria. Galadriel might have been the only one who fully realized what that meant. Thus, she sent the eagle to look for Gandalf.

I also note that when one makes a magic item in Tolkien's world, one is putting a bit of one's own strength into the item. If wizard staves have significant power, Galadriel's making a new staff for Gandalf might have been more of a big deal than many realize.