Imagine No Redemption

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by jallanite

All the outlaws followed Túrin in ceasing their living in areas where other humans dwelt and often raiding them. They followed through with actions. A large number of them insisted in sparing Beleg’s life, overruling their temporary leader Andróg whom Túrin had appointed. These are actions which follow through on what many of them have decided.

I still stand by what I said in my previous post (though admittedly we probably cross-posted); I think many of the actions and decisions of the outlaws were done that way because of how they regarded Turin, not because they truly believed in doing what they did. Perhaps they did believe - the better for them. But you cannot prove that they did, because to me it seems like their motivation stems from their fear, respect, and obedience of Turin, not from their morale.

Originally Posted by jallanite

If you don’t insist of any particular interpretation, then it would be wiser not to present a particular interpretation as though you agreed with it.

A bit of speculation and a different perspective wouldn't hurt the discussion in this thread, would it?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I still stand by what I said in my previous post (though admittedly we probably cross-posted); I think many of the actions and decisions of the outlaws were done that way because of how they regarded Turin, not because they truly believed in doing what they did. Perhaps they did believe - the better for them. But you cannot prove that they did, because to me it seems like their motivation stems from their fear, respect, and obedience of Turin, not from their morale.

Indeed. If the outlaws had truly deplored their actions, why would it have taken Túrin's appearance to show them the error of their ways? Theft, rape, and probably murder had become a way of life to them.
Túrin's change of heart came about when he saw Beleg. He realized then how far he'd fallen. Would all the rest of the band have had a similar revelation, bringing about true remorse?

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Túrin's change of heart came about when he saw Beleg. He realized then how far he'd fallen. Would all the rest of the band have had a similar revelation, bringing about true remorse?

Possibly yes, possibly no. Aldgund quite likely. But as long as many of outlaws were satisfied with their life of plundering and this was supported by their leader they would continue in their way of life.

Tolkien indicates that Túrin “soon became hardened to a mean and often cruel life” and carefully avoids saying that Túrin took no part in the plundering of the other outlaws, which would be very unlikely.

And Túrin’s change of heart happens when slays Forweg, long before he again meets Beleg.

[A Little Green]

Thank you, guys, for a very interesting read!

There is one point I would like to add. On the subject of redemption by death, and how the "sinners" must die after they are redeemed - maybe it is, as suggested, for narrational reasons. Or maybe death was what enabled them to repent in the first place? Thórin works as an example - he thinks better of his ways only on his deathbed, and maybe this isn't because he needs to die after he repents but the other way round: he repents because he knows he is dying. I would argue that the prospect of his own imminent death was a part of what led him to reflect upon his past deeds and see where he went wrong. The world is full of these stories - elderly people in end-of-life care, realizing that they spent too much time earning money and too little playing with their kids.

This is not entirely viable in Boromir's case since he repented already before he knew he was dying; still, it was not until he was dying that he fully confessed what he had done and said he was sorry. When he returned to the rest of the Fellowship after his encounter with Frodo, he did not tell them what he had tried to do. It was only when he was dying that he let go of his pride (for that is what I suppose it was) and confessed. The same is essentially true with Thórin as well - letting go of his pride only at the very end, because maybe, for these proud heroes, it takes the approach of death to realize and to admit that they got it wrong after all.