Riddles in the Downs

[Galadriel55]

Still no correct answer.

Originally Posted by Urwen

The verse 'you can't watch the water flowing' indicates that he can only watch the sea, whose waters don't flow.

It does not refer to the Sea, but I much like the bolded part.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

But somehow I still think I'm too far off. Right now I basically keep focused on places, and Gondor-related ones on top of that, because it sounds like the most plausible. And of those, Osgiliath/Ithilien sounded the best. But we'll see.

Yeah, the subject is not even remotely related to Gondor. Aside from the fact that they are in the same universe...


There are some lines that could tip you off about the setting/event of the riddle, which would then help you identify the speaker. From East to West. Legate had some very good thoughts about this one. Are they coming? Oh yes they are. No more going. Why can't there be more going? The answer to this is not a sentimental one, but something very down-to-earth logical. Like 2+2=4. You can't watch the water flowing! Again, why can't you? Yet another very logical and not sentimental answer.


And again, as I said, the riddle has two parallel "plots" in it. If I were to rearrange the stanzas chronologically, it would look like this:

From East to West
Many a success -
I shall list them
If you'll listen.

I could tell a dreadful story -
Death and darkness, fall from glory.
Are they coming? No more going.
You can't watch the water flowing!

For I am marred,
My skin is scarred;
I never will
From all this heal.

Will you take me?
I'm no beauty.

Will you keep me?
I'm not strong, see.

Will you bring me?
I'm not happy.

Will you give me?
Do not leave me!



The "Will you...me?" lines basically all take place at the same time. And they are a question for the future - will you take me now, so that later you will (perhaps) keep/bring/give me? The 4-line stanzas, on the other hand, all say what has happened in the past.


Also, regarding "heal" - the subject is partially recovered, but complete recovery is quite impossible.

[Urwen]

Well, now I have this crazy idea, the answer is not a person, but the answer did belong to a person, moreover, the answer, I think, belonged to Isildur in the past and had previously belonged to Elendil. Which means that the answer is Narsil.

Therefore, it now becomes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerandir
Correct, your turn! I guess the hint I gave was too much, but without it, it would be pretty hard.

If you just said Yule/December/winter, I wouldn't have thought of it. But there are only that many events than involve Dunlendings.


Alright, here it goes. Hopefully it's at least a bit tricksy and not complete rubbish:


Will you take me?
I'm no beauty.

For I am marred,
My skin is scarred;
I never will
From all this heal.

Will you keep me?
I'm not strong, see.

From East to West
Many a success -
I shall list them
If you'll listen.

(Sauron coming from Mordor to Numenor)

Will you bring me?
I'm not happy.

(Not happy about Numenor downfall)
I could tell a dreadful story -
Death and darkness, fall from glory.
(Fall of Numenor)
Are they coming? No more going.
You can't watch the water flowing!
(This could also refer to coming of Eru, or maybe the fact that the Orcs are coming, and I think the second fact is more accurate. Isildur died while watching the flowing water, so he can't watch it anymore)

Will you give me?
Do not leave me!

(It was probably given to Ohtar after and later forgotten until the late
third age)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay okay. In case Urwen's is not correct, I got one more idea - prompted by Gal's advice regarding the problematic verses.

At least this:

Are they coming? No more going.
You can't watch the water flowing!

If the only reason I can't watch the water flowing is that it is still, then... that brings to my mind the dammed Sirannon by the gates of Moria (with the lovely Watcher and all that belongs to it). The sentence are they coming? would then be much more literal reference to the famous last words in the Book of Mazarbul. (And why there can't be any more going when they are coming, is obvious: the Western side is blocked by the non-flowing water, the Orcs are coming, nowhere to go.)

Now it would be the rest of the riddle, on the other hand, which would prove more tricky to decipher. Of course many of the things can be taken as a general referrence to e.g. Moria as a whole. What puzzles me is Galadriel's insisting on the past/present explanation of the two parts of the riddle. Because to me, I have been taking note of this, but it does not seem to be such a big deal. Unless...

Unless it's the Book of Mazarbul itself (and I should facepalm myself for writing two paraghraphs of thinking aloud since mentioning it the first time). Then the "taking" and all (taking the book to carry it along, certainly not being a "happy" read; nor is it any beauty - it's been pretty much damaged in the battle, pages torn, bloodied, "skin" - possibly even the literal leather in which it's bound, huh? - also damaged...) would be very much plausible. Ah yes. That might be it. And, of course, what else does a book like that do than to list events - then, the past/present division would really be important in the riddle...

So? Is it the Book of Mazarbul?

[Galadriel55]

It's a brave attempt, Urwen, but Legate's shot went nearer. In fact, he quite hit the mark on the dead center.

It it indeed the Book of Mazarbul.

Here are some extracts from it that would help explain some things:

We drove out orcs from the great gate and guard... We have taken the twenty-first hall of North to dwell in...Balin has taken up his seat in the Chamber of Mazarbul...Balin is now Lord of Moria...Oin to seek for the upper armouries of Third Deep...westwards to Hollin gate - From East to West (the actualy direction!) many a success

We cannot get out. We cannot get out. They have taken the bridge and second hall... the pool is up to the wall al Westgate... We cannot get out. The end comes. They are coming. - They are coming, no more going, you can't watch the water flowing.

The book is quite "scarred" by all the holes, burns, and stains, and it is quite impossible to "heal" it, as Legate has said. And it's not strong; it is very fragile.


The questions "will you...me?" refer to Gimli. We know Gandalf told him to take the book, so yes he took it, and he probably kept it at least part of the way, but we don't know it's fate from there. Did Gimli succeed to bring it and give it to King Dain?



Well done, Legate, and good try, Urwen. Maybe next time you'll be more successful.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

We drove out orcs from the great gate and guard... We have taken the twenty-first hall of North to dwell in...Balin has taken up his seat in the Chamber of Mazarbul...Balin is now Lord of Moria...Oin to seek for the upper armouries of Third Deep...westwards to Hollin gate - From East to West (the actualy direction!) many a success

Ha! That's pretty cool observation. I never noticed that it actually runs in that direction. Interesting! (Well, of course, obviously that's the direction in which the Dwarves were moving, but such an analysis of this particular piece of writing shows how even the text's structure is exactly that way, something one does not necessarily think of normally.)

In any case, the most memorable riddles are the ones that are difficult and take some time to decipher, but not to the point that one becomes desperate and practically unable to answer So I would say this was one of the pretty good ones.

All right, so... I'll try to think of something... shortly!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay. Not sure how good (and most of all, how decipherable ) this is, but I hope it will be at least enjoyable for you

To first of you, I'm just a tale,
told by the skies, as they unveil
mysteries hidden long ago.

To second one, who's bigger still
than me, I'm first a fear until
I show him I can bring your friends;
his trust shall be of importance.

And to the third, whom you don't know,
I enlighten the terror's night,
and in mine and the Other's flight
I save more than the tale did show.

[Galadriel55]

I do not have an answer that I am confident with, but I'll try this one anyways; maybe I'll even go in the right direction. And this could always give other people ideas.

To first of you, I'm just a tale,
told by the skies, as they unveil
mysteries hidden long ago. - Seek for the Sword that was Broken, in Imladris it dwells...

To second one, who's bigger still
than me, I'm first a fear until
I show him I can bring your friends;
his trust shall be of importance. - dunno. Aragorn and Sam, perhaps? Sam was afraid and suspicious of Aragorn at first. But it's Aragorn that Sam dislikes, not his sword. And it is Glorfindel's appearance that puts him at ease, not Anduril's ability to "bring friends"...

And to the third, whom you don't know,
I enlighten the terror's night, - could be a reference to the victory at Dagolrad.
and in mine and the Other's flight
I save more than the tale did show. - Ohtar fled Isildur's death scene with Narsil, thus saving hope and enabling the latter generations (ie Aragorn) to use this powerful weapon again, thus bringing about Sauron's defeat.

No, I don't think it is the Shards of Narsil (or Narsil, or Anduril, or the Sword that was Broken, or what have you), but I am wondering if I am interpreting certain things right. For one thing, I think the first stanza is somehow referring to a vision or dream.


I mean, it would be much easier if the answer could be Dragonglass!