Why did Tolkien dislike Disney?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Did Fantasia even make it to the UK while the war was on?

Almost certainly. Most films did as it was seen as very important to keep morale up with a constant stream of entertainments. Gone With The Wind was shown more or less continuously throughout the war, and I remember my nan saying she'd seen it more than a dozen times.

Originally Posted by jallanite

Rupert the Bear first appeared in 1920 and so was probably known to the Tolkien family, but in May 1937 The Dandy and The Beano could not be. The Dandy was first published later that year in December and The Beano was first published the following year. Something in May 1937 or before had made Tolkien think that there was a real danger of American childrens’ book illustrations being influenced by the Disney studios.

Disney films were also not included on North American networks, other than portions of them in some of Disney’s own programs: Disneyland (renamed later) and Micky Mouse Club, and on a few other later Disney programs. Disney, unlike other film production companies, refused to sell any television rights to his older films.

Dandy/Beano are examples of types of wildly popular cartoon/comic available in the UK. His children may have been too old by then (though his grandchildren will probably have picked them up later, along with the fantastic Eagle Comic), but there were plenty of other options that were popular. I can't remember the title but my dad, born in the 30s, collected a popular cartoon series at the time, he snipped them out of the Sunday paper and pasted them in a book so he could read them all at once.

There is also a long standing tradition of book illustration in the UK with a lot of highly lauded artists around in the late 19th and early 20th C that Tolkien will have been well aware of. Disney had a lot of competition in a country used to Kate Greenaway, Alfred Bestall, John Tenniel, Beatrix Potter, Randolph Caldecott, etc. And if you look at the art he produced and the art he liked for his own work (e.g. Pauline Baynes and her nice sketchy, inky drawings) then I'm not surprised he didn't go for Disney style which was all about large planes of colour and emphatic shapes - which works very well on screen but wasn't everyone's aesthetic (I can't personally complain about the modern Pixar stuff which is beautiful).

[Mithalwen]

Wasn't cinema going at it's peak in the UK during WW2? The war meant there was full employment and rationing meant that there wasn't much else to spend your money on. The cinemas also showed Newsreels as well as the features so it was information as well as entertainment, Even little towns like the one I live in had their own "flea pit".

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Dandy/Beano are examples of types of wildly popular cartoon/comic available in the UK. His children may have been too old by then (though his grandchildren will probably have picked them up later, along with the fantastic Eagle Comic), but there were plenty of other options that were popular. I can't remember the title but my dad, born in the 30s, collected a popular cartoon series at the time, he snipped them out of the Sunday paper and pasted them in a book so he could read them all at once.

I do not doubt that there were many comic strips before The Dandy and The Beano. Rupert the Bear dates to 1920. And there were doubtless some spin-off books based on such characters. The population of Canada is smaller than that of Britain and the UK, but even here there were books telling the adventures of Maggie Muggins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maggie_Muggins ), written by author Mary Grannan (http://w3.stu.ca/stu/sites/nble/g/grannan_mary.html ), though the series only aired, so far as I know, on CBC radio and later on CBC Television in Canada.

Sticking one’s favourite strips into a scrap book was also something I did as a child.

There is also a long standing tradition of book illustration in the UK with a lot of highly lauded artists around in the late 19th and early 20th C that Tolkien will have been well aware of. Disney had a lot of competition in a country used to Kate Greenaway, Alfred Bestall, John Tenniel, Beatrix Potter, Randolph Caldecott, etc.

Disney had competition if you must use that word in the US as well: Howard Pyle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Pyle ), Andrew Wyeth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wyeth ), Wanda Gág (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanda_G%C3%A1g ), W. W. Denslow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Wallace_Denslow ), Kurt Wiese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Wiese ), and so forth.

But nothing in American illustration that I am aware of fits with Tolkien’s fear of American children’s illustration being influenced by Disney, unless he had seen books incorporating Disney art and other art derived from American animated cartoons.

Further research shows that Whitman’s Giant Midget Books® line based on their North American Big Little books was founded in 1940, and so they also were likely not seen by Tolkien in 1937 or before. The customs of those days was that a U.S. publisher often partnered with a U.K. firm to publish the same book, as happened with The Hobbit. I find that some early Whitman books starring Mickey Mouse are also listed on the web as being published by Collins in London. See https://www.google.ca/search?q=%22Mi...use%22+collins for some of these books on some of the pages listed.

As far as I can find almost all animated shorts in the early days of film animation were produced in the U.S., and none at all in Britain. So this would have created a demand in Britain for books based on the animated films seen, which Collins was able to fulfill thanks to Whitman. I do not know whether the Mickey Mouse daily strip was published in any British newspaper.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by jallanite

As far as I can find almost all animated shorts in the early days of film animation were produced in the U.S., and none at all in Britain. So this would have created a demand in Britain for books based on the animated films seen, which Collins was able to fulfill thanks to Whitman. I do not know whether the Mickey Mouse daily strip was published in any British newspaper.

I think it's most likely that Tolkien had seen Disney at the cinema. I don't know that any Disney books really took off here. I'm a bit fond of rooting through old children's books in second hand bookshops and I confess I've never seen any Disney ones older than ones from about the 50s or 60s. I also think that if Tolkien didn't like the art style then he's not that likely to have picked up the books for his children unless they pestered him - and apart from Priscilla (possibly) were probably too old to do that by this time?

What is the exact date of his first comment about Disney?

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I don't know that any Disney books really took off here.

They did not take off in the States either, proof being that each book soon went out of print. Same as Britain. But they sold well enough that new ones kept being printed, same as Britain. Their sales market would have been the real fans, the same as the Doctor Who books currently (and formerly) being produced which likewise are mostly not reprinted, even within Britain.

I'm a bit fond of rooting through old children's books in second hand bookshops and I confess I've never seen any Disney ones older than ones from about the 50s or 60s.

The web shows that they existed. Ones older than the 50s would be expected to be rare. Ones from the 30s even rarer. No surprise there.

I also think that if Tolkien didn't like the art style then he's not that likely to have picked up the books for his children unless they pestered him - and apart from Priscilla (possibly) were probably too old to do that by this time?

Neither I nor anyone else here has ever suggested that Tolkien ever bought any of those books. What is your point in saying that something that no-one suggested ever happened didn’t happen? Of course Tolkien probably never bought a book illustrated in a style in loathed.

What is the exact date of his first comment about Disney?

As I’ve posted before the date on the letter is 13 May 1937. The letter is to C. A. Furth, Allen & Unwin. The comment is:

… as long as it is possible (I should like to add) to veto anything from or influenced by the Disney studios (for all of whose works I have a heartfelt loathing.)

The word works may cover various animated cartoons or may cover animated cartoons and books. That Disney is here connected by Tolkien with book illustration suggests to me that Tolkien had seen both cartoons and books and had loathed both. The books were published in Britain in the 30s. They existed in Britain.

Tolkien need only have spotted some of them at least once in a sale bin to have convinced him that American children’s book illustrators were sometimes influenced by Disney. In fact, so far as I know, the only American children’s books of the 30s that could be said to be “from or influenced by the Disney studios″ would be books containing material derived from the American cartoons or inspired by them. Tolkien might not know this.

I don’t find an early Disney animated eagle, but here are some early Disney owls: http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/4...ney%201931.jpg . Here are some cartoon eagles in general: https://www.google.ca/search?q=eagle...=u&source=univ , mostly much later from various sources. Imagine almost any of these used in the illustration “Bilbo Awoke with the Early Morning Sun in his Eyes” and it should be obvious what Tolkien feared. However eagles drawn in this style are unlikely to appear in any book, save funny (supposedly) comic books or a few with pictures that are intentionally in similar style.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by jallanite

Neither I nor anyone else here has ever suggested that Tolkien ever bought any of those books. What is your point in saying that something that no-one suggested ever happened didn’t happen? Of course Tolkien probably never bought a book illustrated in a style in loathed.

I don't know, you mentioned the books, I'm just pointing out that they must have been as rare as hens' teeth

And:

As I’ve posted before the date on the letter is 13 May 1937. The letter is to C. A. Furth, Allen & Unwin. The comment is:

… as long as it is possible (I should like to add) to veto anything from or influenced by the Disney studios (for all of whose works I have a heartfelt loathing.)

The word works may cover various animated cartoons or may cover animated cartoons and books. That Disney is here connected by Tolkien with book illustration suggests to me that Tolkien had seen both cartoons and books and had loathed both. The books were published in Britain in the 30s. They existed in Britain.

Tolkien need only have spotted some of them at least once in a sale bin to have convinced him that American children’s book illustrators were sometimes influenced by Disney. In fact, so far as I know, the only American children’s books of the 30s that could be said to be “from or influenced by the Disney studios″ would be books containing material derived from the American cartoons or inspired by them. Tolkien might not know this.

Yes, he might have seen some in a bookshop. It's still more likely that his main exposure to Disney was at the cinema. Apart from Priscilla, his kids were too old by 1937 to get kids' books - granted Priscilla might have enjoyed them, but they weren't common books, and you certainly wouldn't have got a 'sale bin' in a 1930s bookshop in Britain, as people could barely afford to buy food, let alone books. Cinema tickets were as cheap as (and possibly cheaper than) chips, though.

I'm just weighing up the likelihood of where he encountered Disney is all!

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I don't know, you mentioned the books, I'm just pointing out that they must have been as rare as hens' teeth.

See http://kayaozkaracalar3.blogspot.ca/ for a blog about Disney in Britain, largely covering material from the 30s. Disney books were not “as rare as hen’s teeth″ in Britain of the 30s but instead rather common.

Note the many items on the right-hand side of this blog, each of which lists still more Disney publications in Britain. Your belief in the rarity of Disney print publications in Britain of the 30s is only your own incorrect personal beliefs which are not born out by the facts.

Yes, he might have seen some in a bookshop. It's still more likely that his main exposure to Disney was at the cinema. Apart from Priscilla, his kids were too old by 1937 to get kids' books - granted Priscilla might have enjoyed them, but they weren't common books, …

Again see the Disneyville archives http://kayaozkaracalar3.blogspot.ca/...1_archive.html , and http://kayaozkaracalar3.blogspot.ca/...lications.html for the facts which refute your invention that the Disney books and weekly Disney newsletter were not reasonably common books in Britain in the 30s. See also the discussion of the British Mickey Mouse Weekly at http://www.mouseplanet.com/8365/The_...e_Weekly_Story which was first published in 1936 and ran until 1961. “Soon, the circulation of Mickey Mouse Weekly was 750,000 copies per week.”

Nothing posted by anyone but you even suggests that Tolkien ever bought any Disney books for Priscilla or anyone else. Why do you persist in this absurdity?

… and you certainly wouldn't have got a 'sale bin' in a 1930s bookshop in Britain, as people could barely afford to buy food, let alone books. Cinema tickets were as cheap as (and possibly cheaper than) chips, though.

Britain, then as now, had a large number of publishing companies, including George Allen & Unwin. Obviously their products were being sold. Mickey Mouse Weekly cost only 2 pennies per issue. Some people always are in the position of barely being able to buy food. That people in general in Britain could barely afford to buy food is a gross exaggeration. Yes cinema tickets were relatively cheap and it is quite probable that Tolkien’s first experience with Disney animation was in the cinema. My contention is that his fear that Disney influence was likely in American children’s book publication suggests that he knew that Disney material and similar material appeared in book form.

Evidence shows that he would have had numerous chances to be aware of Disney publications in book stores, if you just look for the evidence. As a would-be children’s book writer who had written The Hobbit, Mr. Bliss, and Roverandom Tolkien would be likely to be more interested in perusing children’s literature in bookstores than most adults, especially as Tolkien was not able to get Mr. Bliss and Roverandom published.

I'm just weighing up the likelihood of where he encountered Disney is all!

Nowhere have I found suggested anywhere in this thread before now that it was about “the likelihood of where he encountered Disney”. What I see is you and you alone claiming that Tolkien could not have encountered Disney from books because there weren’t any Disney books in Britain, or hardly any. That just isn’t true. You were mistaken. There were several publishers in Britain publishing Disney material in the 30s and presumably mostly making money from it as they continued to publish Disney material.

You seem to contend that Tolkien’s fear of influence by Disney on Amercan children’s book animation was almost solely paranoid fantasy. Arguing solely from likelihood, it seems to me very likely that Tolkien, as well as having seen Disney animation, had also seen at least some of the many, many Disney articles on sale in Britain at the time.

[davem]

Found this: http://www.michaelbarrier.com/Home%2...hivesFeb10.htm

Interesting reference to a 1964 letter by JRRT himself:

...I recognize his talent, but it has always seemed to me hopelessly corrupted. Though in most of the 'pictures' proceding from his studios there are admirable or charming passages, the effect of all of them is to me disgusting. Some have given me nausea...

he also accuses Disney of being in his business practices "simply a cheat: willing and even eager to defraud the less experienced by trickery sufficiently 'legal' to keep him out of jail"; he adds that his own affairs are in the hands of Allen & Unwin ("a firm with the highest repute"); that he is "not innocent of the profit-motive" himself (although "I should not have given any proposal from Disney any consideration at all. I am not all that poor..."

And an equally interesting comment on Tolkien's original 1937 letter attacking 'Disneyfication':

The 1937 letter does seem more odd—I can only think that Tolkien was objecting to Disney's cartoon styling, which he would have seen as very crass as far as illustration was concerned. Although the Disney approach to source material (as was the general approach with Hollywood shorts) was to reduce the story to its simplest form, then develop the comic potential in the telling: this would have seemed unacceptable reductionism to Tolkien (and, I suspect, most authors!).

What I do wonder is whether the release of Snow White gave Tolkien any reason to doubt his previous stance. Whilst he would have still feared seeing his characters reduced to comic renditions of American personalities, like the dwarfs, the powerful dramatic possibilities that the feature revealed might have momentarily dented his resolve. However, the fact that Disney was never going to drop the humorous and sentimental elements, nor go beyond the American sensibilities of his audience (and himself) evidenced in the subsequent features would have soon reaffirmed his position.

I suspect its this kind of thing that may have shaped Tolkien's views on Disney (cue Walt's take on the tragedy of the Ents & the Entwives http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTuIb7BIFqk )

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by jallanite

Note the many items on the right-hand side of this blog, each of which lists still more Disney publications in Britain. Your belief in the rarity of Disney print publications in Britain of the 30s is only your own incorrect personal beliefs which are not born out by the facts.

I spend a lot of time in second hand bookshops browsing children's books and I have never encountered any Disney books older than the 50s/60s. Yes, they existed, but the facts borne out by my own hours spent looking through kids' books do not bear out that they were that common. Yet you can still find a lot of old Rupert annuals etc from the period.

Nothing posted by anyone but you even suggests that Tolkien ever bought any Disney books for Priscilla or anyone else. Why do you persist in this absurdity?

Relax. It's my opinion. Of course I have known a lot of older British people (and still have the privilege of having two parents who lived through the 30s) and they all saw hours and hours of Disney cartoons at the cinema. Cinema was cheap fun and a primary source of news broadcasts, and everyone went there. And yes, millions of people were too poor to afford books and food (this is not the place to put you right on that point), but a visit to the flea pit provided an escape from the sheer misery that was life in 1930s Britain. Disney cartoons were so popular, they would even be shown at the interval during local theatre and musical productions, and at church events. We already know Tolkien wasn't a hermit and he'd have had many chances to see these cartoons that were everywhere as they were so popular.

Sorry, but I will persist that Tolkien's most likely exposure to Disney was from cinema. It's based on experience and knowledge of culture here. These books clearly weren't that popular, as borne out by the lack of them in the thousands of hours I've spent in second hand bookshops (and you can buy all kinds of raggedy old comics and chewed books from the first half of the 20th c so unless they have all been squirelled away they can't be that common). However, cinema going was something everyone did - going to see a mixed bag programme that would maybe have a film, some news, a couple of cartoons etc.

There's also the 1930s British book shopping experience to take into account. Bookshops weren't shops conducive to casual browsing, in common with most shops in the UK until the 1950s stock was mostly kept out of reach of 'casual browsers' and you would normally need to ask to view items. Books were expensive and most borrowed them from the public library. Browsing in the modern sense would only have happened in more casual shopping environments like markets or Woolworths (in fact Penguin paperbacks were first sold here). Tolkien's wife was more likely to have come into contact with the cheaper end of publishing doing her Saturday shopping (not something men ever got involved with); an Oxford bookshop would have been extremely unlikely to have ever lowered itself to stock comics, kids' books and paperbacks and the like.

In 1937 the place Tolkien is most likely to have seen Disney in print would be in the newspaper. I have access to the British Newspaper Archive and have been looking what's held there. Hype for Snow White in 1937 was all over, and some titles carried Mickey Mouse strips (just found one now in a 1930 edition of the Hull Daily Mail after a quick search of the British National Newspapers archive). There's also an item about one of the books in a 1934 Gloucestershire Echo - priced at 2s 6d, a whole day's pay, which might explain rarity. It's also recommended as a special gift item for children (which shows that it was regarded as expensive) - and it's always possible the two younger Tolkien children were given suchlike as special Christmas or birthday gifts by other relations in the 30s.

In 1964 T refers to Disney's 'pictures', which in the UK would always have meant his films. 'Pictures' is what British people called films until recently.

Nowhere have I found suggested anywhere in this thread before now that it was about “the likelihood of where he encountered Disney”. What I see is you and you alone claiming that Tolkien could not have encountered Disney from books because there weren’t any Disney books in Britain, or hardly any. That just isn’t true. You were mistaken.

You first mentioned Disney books. I disagree with you that they were of much importance in shaping Tolkien's opinion of Disney. Hey Ho. It's not going to go anywhere from hereonin so I'd suggest leaving it there.