Why did Tolkien dislike Disney?

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Dandy/Beano are examples of types of wildly popular cartoon/comic available in the UK. His children may have been too old by then (though his grandchildren will probably have picked them up later, along with the fantastic Eagle Comic), but there were plenty of other options that were popular. I can't remember the title but my dad, born in the 30s, collected a popular cartoon series at the time, he snipped them out of the Sunday paper and pasted them in a book so he could read them all at once.

I do not doubt that there were many comic strips before The Dandy and The Beano. Rupert the Bear dates to 1920. And there were doubtless some spin-off books based on such characters. The population of Canada is smaller than that of Britain and the UK, but even here there were books telling the adventures of Maggie Muggins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maggie_Muggins ), written by author Mary Grannan (http://w3.stu.ca/stu/sites/nble/g/grannan_mary.html ), though the series only aired, so far as I know, on CBC radio and later on CBC Television in Canada.

Sticking one’s favourite strips into a scrap book was also something I did as a child.

There is also a long standing tradition of book illustration in the UK with a lot of highly lauded artists around in the late 19th and early 20th C that Tolkien will have been well aware of. Disney had a lot of competition in a country used to Kate Greenaway, Alfred Bestall, John Tenniel, Beatrix Potter, Randolph Caldecott, etc.

Disney had competition if you must use that word in the US as well: Howard Pyle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Pyle ), Andrew Wyeth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wyeth ), Wanda Gág (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanda_G%C3%A1g ), W. W. Denslow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Wallace_Denslow ), Kurt Wiese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Wiese ), and so forth.

But nothing in American illustration that I am aware of fits with Tolkien’s fear of American children’s illustration being influenced by Disney, unless he had seen books incorporating Disney art and other art derived from American animated cartoons.

Further research shows that Whitman’s Giant Midget Books® line based on their North American Big Little books was founded in 1940, and so they also were likely not seen by Tolkien in 1937 or before. The customs of those days was that a U.S. publisher often partnered with a U.K. firm to publish the same book, as happened with The Hobbit. I find that some early Whitman books starring Mickey Mouse are also listed on the web as being published by Collins in London. See https://www.google.ca/search?q=%22Mi...use%22+collins for some of these books on some of the pages listed.

As far as I can find almost all animated shorts in the early days of film animation were produced in the U.S., and none at all in Britain. So this would have created a demand in Britain for books based on the animated films seen, which Collins was able to fulfill thanks to Whitman. I do not know whether the Mickey Mouse daily strip was published in any British newspaper.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by jallanite

As far as I can find almost all animated shorts in the early days of film animation were produced in the U.S., and none at all in Britain. So this would have created a demand in Britain for books based on the animated films seen, which Collins was able to fulfill thanks to Whitman. I do not know whether the Mickey Mouse daily strip was published in any British newspaper.

I think it's most likely that Tolkien had seen Disney at the cinema. I don't know that any Disney books really took off here. I'm a bit fond of rooting through old children's books in second hand bookshops and I confess I've never seen any Disney ones older than ones from about the 50s or 60s. I also think that if Tolkien didn't like the art style then he's not that likely to have picked up the books for his children unless they pestered him - and apart from Priscilla (possibly) were probably too old to do that by this time?

What is the exact date of his first comment about Disney?

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I don't know that any Disney books really took off here.

They did not take off in the States either, proof being that each book soon went out of print. Same as Britain. But they sold well enough that new ones kept being printed, same as Britain. Their sales market would have been the real fans, the same as the Doctor Who books currently (and formerly) being produced which likewise are mostly not reprinted, even within Britain.

I'm a bit fond of rooting through old children's books in second hand bookshops and I confess I've never seen any Disney ones older than ones from about the 50s or 60s.

The web shows that they existed. Ones older than the 50s would be expected to be rare. Ones from the 30s even rarer. No surprise there.

I also think that if Tolkien didn't like the art style then he's not that likely to have picked up the books for his children unless they pestered him - and apart from Priscilla (possibly) were probably too old to do that by this time?

Neither I nor anyone else here has ever suggested that Tolkien ever bought any of those books. What is your point in saying that something that no-one suggested ever happened didn’t happen? Of course Tolkien probably never bought a book illustrated in a style in loathed.

What is the exact date of his first comment about Disney?

As I’ve posted before the date on the letter is 13 May 1937. The letter is to C. A. Furth, Allen & Unwin. The comment is:

… as long as it is possible (I should like to add) to veto anything from or influenced by the Disney studios (for all of whose works I have a heartfelt loathing.)

The word works may cover various animated cartoons or may cover animated cartoons and books. That Disney is here connected by Tolkien with book illustration suggests to me that Tolkien had seen both cartoons and books and had loathed both. The books were published in Britain in the 30s. They existed in Britain.

Tolkien need only have spotted some of them at least once in a sale bin to have convinced him that American children’s book illustrators were sometimes influenced by Disney. In fact, so far as I know, the only American children’s books of the 30s that could be said to be “from or influenced by the Disney studios″ would be books containing material derived from the American cartoons or inspired by them. Tolkien might not know this.

I don’t find an early Disney animated eagle, but here are some early Disney owls: http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/4...ney%201931.jpg . Here are some cartoon eagles in general: https://www.google.ca/search?q=eagle...=u&source=univ , mostly much later from various sources. Imagine almost any of these used in the illustration “Bilbo Awoke with the Early Morning Sun in his Eyes” and it should be obvious what Tolkien feared. However eagles drawn in this style are unlikely to appear in any book, save funny (supposedly) comic books or a few with pictures that are intentionally in similar style.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by jallanite

Neither I nor anyone else here has ever suggested that Tolkien ever bought any of those books. What is your point in saying that something that no-one suggested ever happened didn’t happen? Of course Tolkien probably never bought a book illustrated in a style in loathed.

I don't know, you mentioned the books, I'm just pointing out that they must have been as rare as hens' teeth

And:

As I’ve posted before the date on the letter is 13 May 1937. The letter is to C. A. Furth, Allen & Unwin. The comment is:

… as long as it is possible (I should like to add) to veto anything from or influenced by the Disney studios (for all of whose works I have a heartfelt loathing.)

The word works may cover various animated cartoons or may cover animated cartoons and books. That Disney is here connected by Tolkien with book illustration suggests to me that Tolkien had seen both cartoons and books and had loathed both. The books were published in Britain in the 30s. They existed in Britain.

Tolkien need only have spotted some of them at least once in a sale bin to have convinced him that American children’s book illustrators were sometimes influenced by Disney. In fact, so far as I know, the only American children’s books of the 30s that could be said to be “from or influenced by the Disney studios″ would be books containing material derived from the American cartoons or inspired by them. Tolkien might not know this.

Yes, he might have seen some in a bookshop. It's still more likely that his main exposure to Disney was at the cinema. Apart from Priscilla, his kids were too old by 1937 to get kids' books - granted Priscilla might have enjoyed them, but they weren't common books, and you certainly wouldn't have got a 'sale bin' in a 1930s bookshop in Britain, as people could barely afford to buy food, let alone books. Cinema tickets were as cheap as (and possibly cheaper than) chips, though.

I'm just weighing up the likelihood of where he encountered Disney is all!

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I don't know, you mentioned the books, I'm just pointing out that they must have been as rare as hens' teeth.

See http://kayaozkaracalar3.blogspot.ca/ for a blog about Disney in Britain, largely covering material from the 30s. Disney books were not “as rare as hen’s teeth″ in Britain of the 30s but instead rather common.

Note the many items on the right-hand side of this blog, each of which lists still more Disney publications in Britain. Your belief in the rarity of Disney print publications in Britain of the 30s is only your own incorrect personal beliefs which are not born out by the facts.

Yes, he might have seen some in a bookshop. It's still more likely that his main exposure to Disney was at the cinema. Apart from Priscilla, his kids were too old by 1937 to get kids' books - granted Priscilla might have enjoyed them, but they weren't common books, …

Again see the Disneyville archives http://kayaozkaracalar3.blogspot.ca/...1_archive.html , and http://kayaozkaracalar3.blogspot.ca/...lications.html for the facts which refute your invention that the Disney books and weekly Disney newsletter were not reasonably common books in Britain in the 30s. See also the discussion of the British Mickey Mouse Weekly at http://www.mouseplanet.com/8365/The_...e_Weekly_Story which was first published in 1936 and ran until 1961. “Soon, the circulation of Mickey Mouse Weekly was 750,000 copies per week.”

Nothing posted by anyone but you even suggests that Tolkien ever bought any Disney books for Priscilla or anyone else. Why do you persist in this absurdity?

… and you certainly wouldn't have got a 'sale bin' in a 1930s bookshop in Britain, as people could barely afford to buy food, let alone books. Cinema tickets were as cheap as (and possibly cheaper than) chips, though.

Britain, then as now, had a large number of publishing companies, including George Allen & Unwin. Obviously their products were being sold. Mickey Mouse Weekly cost only 2 pennies per issue. Some people always are in the position of barely being able to buy food. That people in general in Britain could barely afford to buy food is a gross exaggeration. Yes cinema tickets were relatively cheap and it is quite probable that Tolkien’s first experience with Disney animation was in the cinema. My contention is that his fear that Disney influence was likely in American children’s book publication suggests that he knew that Disney material and similar material appeared in book form.

Evidence shows that he would have had numerous chances to be aware of Disney publications in book stores, if you just look for the evidence. As a would-be children’s book writer who had written The Hobbit, Mr. Bliss, and Roverandom Tolkien would be likely to be more interested in perusing children’s literature in bookstores than most adults, especially as Tolkien was not able to get Mr. Bliss and Roverandom published.

I'm just weighing up the likelihood of where he encountered Disney is all!

Nowhere have I found suggested anywhere in this thread before now that it was about “the likelihood of where he encountered Disney”. What I see is you and you alone claiming that Tolkien could not have encountered Disney from books because there weren’t any Disney books in Britain, or hardly any. That just isn’t true. You were mistaken. There were several publishers in Britain publishing Disney material in the 30s and presumably mostly making money from it as they continued to publish Disney material.

You seem to contend that Tolkien’s fear of influence by Disney on Amercan children’s book animation was almost solely paranoid fantasy. Arguing solely from likelihood, it seems to me very likely that Tolkien, as well as having seen Disney animation, had also seen at least some of the many, many Disney articles on sale in Britain at the time.

[davem]

Found this: http://www.michaelbarrier.com/Home%2...hivesFeb10.htm

Interesting reference to a 1964 letter by JRRT himself:

...I recognize his talent, but it has always seemed to me hopelessly corrupted. Though in most of the 'pictures' proceding from his studios there are admirable or charming passages, the effect of all of them is to me disgusting. Some have given me nausea...

he also accuses Disney of being in his business practices "simply a cheat: willing and even eager to defraud the less experienced by trickery sufficiently 'legal' to keep him out of jail"; he adds that his own affairs are in the hands of Allen & Unwin ("a firm with the highest repute"); that he is "not innocent of the profit-motive" himself (although "I should not have given any proposal from Disney any consideration at all. I am not all that poor..."

And an equally interesting comment on Tolkien's original 1937 letter attacking 'Disneyfication':

The 1937 letter does seem more odd—I can only think that Tolkien was objecting to Disney's cartoon styling, which he would have seen as very crass as far as illustration was concerned. Although the Disney approach to source material (as was the general approach with Hollywood shorts) was to reduce the story to its simplest form, then develop the comic potential in the telling: this would have seemed unacceptable reductionism to Tolkien (and, I suspect, most authors!).

What I do wonder is whether the release of Snow White gave Tolkien any reason to doubt his previous stance. Whilst he would have still feared seeing his characters reduced to comic renditions of American personalities, like the dwarfs, the powerful dramatic possibilities that the feature revealed might have momentarily dented his resolve. However, the fact that Disney was never going to drop the humorous and sentimental elements, nor go beyond the American sensibilities of his audience (and himself) evidenced in the subsequent features would have soon reaffirmed his position.

I suspect its this kind of thing that may have shaped Tolkien's views on Disney (cue Walt's take on the tragedy of the Ents & the Entwives http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTuIb7BIFqk )

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by jallanite

Note the many items on the right-hand side of this blog, each of which lists still more Disney publications in Britain. Your belief in the rarity of Disney print publications in Britain of the 30s is only your own incorrect personal beliefs which are not born out by the facts.

I spend a lot of time in second hand bookshops browsing children's books and I have never encountered any Disney books older than the 50s/60s. Yes, they existed, but the facts borne out by my own hours spent looking through kids' books do not bear out that they were that common. Yet you can still find a lot of old Rupert annuals etc from the period.

Nothing posted by anyone but you even suggests that Tolkien ever bought any Disney books for Priscilla or anyone else. Why do you persist in this absurdity?

Relax. It's my opinion. Of course I have known a lot of older British people (and still have the privilege of having two parents who lived through the 30s) and they all saw hours and hours of Disney cartoons at the cinema. Cinema was cheap fun and a primary source of news broadcasts, and everyone went there. And yes, millions of people were too poor to afford books and food (this is not the place to put you right on that point), but a visit to the flea pit provided an escape from the sheer misery that was life in 1930s Britain. Disney cartoons were so popular, they would even be shown at the interval during local theatre and musical productions, and at church events. We already know Tolkien wasn't a hermit and he'd have had many chances to see these cartoons that were everywhere as they were so popular.

Sorry, but I will persist that Tolkien's most likely exposure to Disney was from cinema. It's based on experience and knowledge of culture here. These books clearly weren't that popular, as borne out by the lack of them in the thousands of hours I've spent in second hand bookshops (and you can buy all kinds of raggedy old comics and chewed books from the first half of the 20th c so unless they have all been squirelled away they can't be that common). However, cinema going was something everyone did - going to see a mixed bag programme that would maybe have a film, some news, a couple of cartoons etc.

There's also the 1930s British book shopping experience to take into account. Bookshops weren't shops conducive to casual browsing, in common with most shops in the UK until the 1950s stock was mostly kept out of reach of 'casual browsers' and you would normally need to ask to view items. Books were expensive and most borrowed them from the public library. Browsing in the modern sense would only have happened in more casual shopping environments like markets or Woolworths (in fact Penguin paperbacks were first sold here). Tolkien's wife was more likely to have come into contact with the cheaper end of publishing doing her Saturday shopping (not something men ever got involved with); an Oxford bookshop would have been extremely unlikely to have ever lowered itself to stock comics, kids' books and paperbacks and the like.

In 1937 the place Tolkien is most likely to have seen Disney in print would be in the newspaper. I have access to the British Newspaper Archive and have been looking what's held there. Hype for Snow White in 1937 was all over, and some titles carried Mickey Mouse strips (just found one now in a 1930 edition of the Hull Daily Mail after a quick search of the British National Newspapers archive). There's also an item about one of the books in a 1934 Gloucestershire Echo - priced at 2s 6d, a whole day's pay, which might explain rarity. It's also recommended as a special gift item for children (which shows that it was regarded as expensive) - and it's always possible the two younger Tolkien children were given suchlike as special Christmas or birthday gifts by other relations in the 30s.

In 1964 T refers to Disney's 'pictures', which in the UK would always have meant his films. 'Pictures' is what British people called films until recently.

Nowhere have I found suggested anywhere in this thread before now that it was about “the likelihood of where he encountered Disney”. What I see is you and you alone claiming that Tolkien could not have encountered Disney from books because there weren’t any Disney books in Britain, or hardly any. That just isn’t true. You were mistaken.

You first mentioned Disney books. I disagree with you that they were of much importance in shaping Tolkien's opinion of Disney. Hey Ho. It's not going to go anywhere from hereonin so I'd suggest leaving it there.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I spend a lot of time in second hand bookshops browsing children's books and I have never encountered any Disney books older than the 50s/60s. Yes, they existed, but the facts borne out by my own hours spent looking through kids' books do not bear out that they were that common. Yet you can still find a lot of old Rupert annuals etc from the period.

The period would end in May 1937 and begin approximately in 1935 or even earlier. There was only one Rupert the Bear annual during that period, the first, issued for Christmas 1936. There were some earlier Rupert the Bear books, but no annuals. Your so-called facts appear to be as imaginary as your previous mention of The Dandy, and The Beano, which only began publication in late 1937 and 1938 respectively.

The extent of Disney fandom is one explanation why perhaps Disney books don’t make it down to second-hand bookshops or stay there very long if they do.

I have never suggested that any particular Disney book was “that common”, whatever that means exactly. I have only presented information gathered by others that indicates that the number of Disney books from the period indicates that publishers in Britain were making money from Disney books during the period, or they would have stopped publishing them.

Argue all you want that Disney books weren’t, taken one at a time, common during that period. I never claimed that any individual book was common. It is futile to attempt to refute arguments I have never made.

What I did note is that Tolkien thought that there was a real danger that illustrations in the American edition of The Hobbit might be influenced by work issued from the Disney studios. I have pointed out that, so far as I can tell, there was no influence on children’s book illustrators from the Disney studios other than that books had begun appearing that were directly based or taken from animated cartoons, predominately from Disney cartoons, including British books.

I have suggested that Tolkien might have gotten the idea that American illustrators were being influenced by Disney from seeing some of the Disney books published in Britain at the time or at least knowing about them. That is all. I don’t know whether Tolkien ever saw any Disney book. The evidence suggests to me that he at least knew about them.

Refute me by pointing out American children’s book illustration that to some degree resembled Disney but was not in books directly derived from or related to cartoons, if you can. Or refute me by showing that Tolkien definitely did not know about any of the Disney books that had been published in Britain, if you can.

But the more I look, the more British Disney I find. That some British newspapers published the American Mickey Mouse strip is further evidence of the presence of Disney in British publications. That The Mickey Mouse Weekly began publication in February 1936 with over 500,000 copies sold indicates the extent of the British appetite for Disney material. Currently The Dandy’s circulation is only about 8,000 and it is to be cancelled. The Beano is supposedly still safe with a circulation of only 38,000, less than ¹∕₁₀ of the initial circulation of The Mickey Mouse Weekly which had soon achieved a circulation of 750,000. I am aware that a weekly publication is not the same as a book. But seeing The Mickey Mouse Weekly in many places and at least knowing that Disney books were available completely explains Tolkien’s fear of influence by Disney on children’s book illustrators, even though it was unfounded in itself.

Relax. It's my opinion.

Your opinion that Disney books were never rabid best-sellers has never been disputed by me. They were not best-sellers in the U.S. either. If it is your opinion that it is unlikely that Tolkien did not know that Disney book items (and postcards and other Disney items) were being sold in Britain, I deem that opinion unlikely to be true.

Cinema was cheap fun and a primary source of news broadcasts, and everyone went there.

Everyone? That is an obvious exaggeration. What you should have said is almost everyone. But Tolkien, in 1965, was so poorly informed on the film world that he did not know who Ava Gardner was, although she had long been one of the most prominent film stars in the world. Of course, that does not mean that earlier in his life Tolkien might not have often gone to the cinema, indeed might have gone quite often.

Arguing from generalities to individual preferences is a bad practice.

Sorry, but I will persist that Tolkien's most likely exposure to Disney was from cinema.

I have never denied that. Never. But I do deny that arguing that most people in Britain were inveterate film-goers does not mean that Tolkien was. Most people in Britain, to judge from most comments in the press and the general inclusion of Disney on film programs loved Disney. Tolkien loathed his work. By your methods of arguing Tolkien must have also loved Disney.

Note that I do not claim to know how Tolkien first encountered Disney. The most likely way need not be the way it actually happened.

However, cinema going was something everyone did - going to see a mixed bag programme that would maybe have a film, some news, a couple of cartoons etc.

Again with the everyone. Tolkien, at least at one period later in life, went very seldom to the films. Still, I do not deny that Tolkien most likely encountered Disney in the films and have never denied it. So who are you arguing with? Still, most likely is not proof. For all I and you know Tolkien first knowingly encountered Disney when someone gave one of his children a Mickey Mouse book as a Christmas present. Note that I do not believe this happened. I simply don’t know what happened. And I am more aware than you appear to be about the dangers of arguing from likelihood.

There's also the 1930s British book shopping experience to take into account. Bookshops weren't shops conducive to casual browsing, in common with most shops in the UK until the 1950s stock was mostly kept out of reach of 'casual browsers' and you would normally need to ask to view items.

Books were expensive and most borrowed them from the public library. Browsing in the modern sense would only have happened in more casual shopping environments like markets or Woolworths (in fact Penguin paperbacks were first sold here).

Untrue. From Sauron Defeated (HoME 9), p. 303, written by Tolkien about 1946:

It wasn’t a library. It was a folder containing a manuscript, on a high shelf in Whitburn’s second-hand room, that funny dark place where all sorts of unsaleable things drift. No wonder my dreams were full of dust and anxiety! It must have been fifteen years since I found the thing there: Quenta Eldalien, being the History of the Elves, by John Arthurson – in a manuscript, much as I’ve described it. I took an eager but hasty glance. But I had no time to spare that day, and I could find no one in the shop to answer my enquiries, so I hurried off.

This is a reference to the second-hand room in an Oxford bookstore in which Jeremy is browsing without supervision. Some more expensive books would doubtless be in glass cases or behind the counter in the main shop. I doubt that it would be any different in the 30s or before. If your business is selling books which are very unlike one another, you simply must let your customers browse.

… an Oxford bookshop would have been extremely unlikely to have ever lowered itself to stock comics, kids' books and paperbacks and the like.

Certainly partly true of a high-class Oxford bookshop. But is your claim now that The Mickey Mouse weekly was not sold anywhere in Oxford in the 30s? Or that it would be extremely unlikely that any Oxford bookshop in the 30s would have lowered itself to stock The Hobbit or Beatrix Potter’s Peter Rabbit or Howard Pyle’s books?

You first mentioned Disney books. I disagree with you that they were of much importance in shaping Tolkien's opinion of Disney.

I never claimed specifically that “they were of much importance in shaping Tolkien’s opinion of Disney”. Again you are disagreeing with something I never claimed. Your practice seems to me that if you can’t cogently disagree with what I do say, then make up something that I didn’t say and disagree with that.

Hey Ho. It's not going to go anywhere from hereonin so I'd suggest leaving it there.

If you want to stop disagreeing with opinions that aren’t mine, I think you should. And be aware that what is the most likely thing to have occurred may not have been what actually happened.