Why did Tolkien dislike Disney?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Having just heard the news that Disney has bought Lucasfilms and plans to do Star Wars 7 - 9, I find myself hoping that Peter Jackson isn't next on Disney's list of acquisitions.

I saw that too. Disney is actually a reasonable facsimile of the Evil Empire, so in a grotesque way it's rather fitting.

Hyperbole aside, I honestly shudder to think what they'd do if they did get their claws on Tolkien's works.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I saw that too. Disney is actually a reasonable facsimile of the Evil Empire, so in a grotesque way it's rather fitting.

Hyperbole aside, I honestly shudder to think what they'd do if they did get their claws on Tolkien's works.

Pffft! Peter Jackson has already turned Middle-earth into a Disney ride, with cascading skulls, shield surfing and an elephant slide.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Pffft! Peter Jackson has already turned Middle-earth into a Disney ride, with cascading skulls, shield surfing and an elephant slide.

Pirates of the Khazad-dûm?

Seriously though, as worthy of complaint as PJ's efforts have been, Disney would bring shallow, cheap thrills to a wholly new standard.

[Jolly Cotton]

I guess a Disney LOTR film would be a lot like Pirates of The Caribbean, except you know, without the pirates & ships. I think Pixar could make a half decent script mind.

Hopefully LOTR is such a big weapon in WB's arsenal that will look to hold on to the rights for a very long time.

[davem]

Not sure why Disney would be interested in the Tolkien franchise as the only books Tolkien sold the rights to have been adapted already. Unless they'd like to do another adaptation of LotR/TH. Or maybe a Christmas cartoon version with Mickey & Pluto in the Frodo & Sam roles & Donald Duck as Gollum......which suddenly I'd like to see.

And leave us not forget that Lego have LotR & TH sets out, not to mention a computer game http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2QKi...eature=related

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Pirates of the Khazad-dûm?

Johnny Depp as Gandalf!

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Seriously though, as worthy of complaint as PJ's efforts have been, Disney would bring shallow, cheap thrills to a wholly new standard.

Oh, for a minute there I thought you were referring to PJ's The Two Towers.

[Formendacil]

It might have been wiser of me to let this sleeping thread lie--though since wizards are meddlers and bearers of ill news, perhaps not--but I have found a nugget of information about Tolkien and Disney and it has stuck in my mind since as needing to be added to this thread for the sake of the historical record.

My source is The J.R.R. Tolkien Companion and Guide Chronology (Houghton Mifflin, 2006) by Christina Scull and Wayne G. Hammond. The entry for 1939 includes the following:

Originally Posted by Scull & Hammond

C.S. Lewis twice sees the animated film Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs in the cinema (premiered in Britain in 1938). On the second occasion he is accompanied by Tolkien, who finds Snow to be beautiful but dislikes the Disney Studio's treatment of the Dwarfs.

Scull & Hammond, 224

Scull and Hammond are unable, in such a massive work, to provide a source for every entry, but it is clear from the context that the source in this case must be C.S. Lewis--possibly his diaries.

While this does not negate the possibility that Tolkien encountered Disney illustration in books, it confirms beyond a trace of reasonable doubt that he had seen Snow White. Interestingly, Tolkien found "Snow White to be beautiful" and it is the Dwarves specifically to whom he objects, which is consistent with his concerns about the Disnification of a Hobbit film.

The index to The Chonology lists a further seven pages with references to Disney. The first is from May 1937 and is a reference to his correspondence regarding the illustration of The Hobbit, as does a Dec. 1946 reference. In 1955, when Tolkien visits Italy with his daughter, "filthy Disney figures and Mickey mice" is the unflattering comparison he gives for the products of a glass factory he visits. Disney is again an unflattering reference in 1959 when referring to the dramatisation of The Hobbit (a play, however, rather than a film, which suggests the treatment of plot or theme rather than a visual characteristic). July 1964 is the entry that I will quote the entry in full here:

Originally Posted by Scull & Hammond

?15 July 1964 (postmark) Tolkien finds an unfinished letter to Miss J.L. Curry begun in April but then neglected. He now completes it, apologizing for the delay. He expresses his dislike of Disney's films: 'Though in most of the "pictures" proceeding from his studios there are admirable or charming passages, the effect of all of them is to me disgusting. Some have given me nausea' (quoted in Sotheby's, English Literature, Childrens & Illustrated Books & Drawings, London, 10 July 2001, p.123). He criticizes Disney's business practices, and would not have given a film proposal from Disney any consideration at all

And then there is a reference, 5 April 1966, in the midst of the matters surrounding the preparation of the Second Edition, to a radio broadcast of The Lord of the Rings in the states that has been sent "to Walt Disney see if the studio might be interested in a film adaptation, but they have replied that this would be too costly an enterprise."

There is little enough commentary for me to add to these bare references, beyond the fact that Tolkien gives the impression of having seen more than one Disney film (though "pictures" could, in fact, be argued to mean "more than one image"--i.e. in a single film). It also seems arguable that his impression soured over the years as Disney came to be identified with fairy-tales, from a mixed reaction to Snow White to a general antipathy to everything they stood for.

[Mithalwen]

You could argue that bur the inverted commas make it clear he means films not individual cells. Standard colloquial British usage of the time for going to the cinema was "go to the pictures".

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

You could argue that bur the inverted commas make it clear he means films not individual cells. Standard colloquial British usage of the time for going to the cinema was "go to the pictures".

Indeed. And he also referred to 'passages', which would also mean films. It's still rare to hear anyone over the age of 21 refer to 'movies' in the UK - it's always films/cinema/pictures. I think if I said to davem "Let's go to the movies!" then he'd spit his tea out

Nice quotes though, Form.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

July 1964 is the entry that I will quote the entry in full here:
.

A somewhat fuller entry:

Originally Posted by Tolkien

to a Miss J.L. Curry, dated 15 July, 1964.

"[...] I recognize his talent, but it has always seemed to me hopelessly corrupted. Though in most of the 'pictures' proceeding from his studios there are admirable or charming passages, the effect of all of them to me is disgusting. Some have given me nausea [...]"

He also accused Disney of being in his business practices "simply a cheat: willing and even eager to defraud the less experienced by trickery sufficently 'legal' to keep him out of jail"; he adds that his own affairs are in the hands of Allen & Unwin ("a firm with the highest repute"); that he is "not innocent of the profit-motive" himself (although "I should not have given any proposal from Disney any consideration at all. I am not all that poor [...]"

As to the broader question of 'films' vs other exposure- it seems very clear now that the letter of 1937 could not possibly have been influenced by Snow White, which T didn't see until Lewis took him in 1939. This is not however to say that Tolkien hadn't seen Disney animation at that time, since the 'Silly Symphony' cartoon shorts were routinely played as part of the prologomena to films, on both sides of the Atlantic.

I think this more likely than books (although we can't rule out daily comic strips, I suppose; did The Times or Telegraph even contain 'funny pages' in the 30s?) Tolkien's comment on the Browning's Pied Piper and "cheap and vulgar plastic toys" suggests that comic books/cartoon picture-books were likely Not Welcome chez Tolkien.

[Ardent]

In the film 'Adam's Family Values' the sensibilities of Tolkien and Disney come face to face in a summer camp. Anyone who has seen it will know what I mean, but if you haven't then imagine how Legolas and Gimli might feel having been forced to watch Disney films all night. Fantasia's Night on Bare Mountain with its balrog emerging from the pit, Snow White's dwarves, hippos in tutus... chilling.

As to the two authors copyrighting their work I do not find it surprising or a problem; if I had put years of experience into my works I wouldn't want their messages skewed or lost either. I'd be more in favour of the Tolkien-esque than Disney-esque but either way something of 'me and mine' would innevitably be lost. Even where the two converge they remain distinct; "Tra la la lally down here in the valley" is as far from 'The Lay of Gilgalad' as it is from "Hi ho, hi ho".

That said, both have had a huge influence on me. In childhood I 'got' Disney and though I have grown out of that simplicity I still remember when things like 'The Sourcerer's Apprentice' and 'Dumbo' were new to me, how they made me feel. I have not traded one in for the other but, like a tree, the one ring has grown outside the other. Indeed, one might say that when dealing with the ancient stories Tolkien is more like Saruman, taking them and their languages apart to show us many colours. Where Disney shows us the 'baddy' and the 'happy ever after', Tolkien shows us the 'baddy-who-was-just-like-us' and the happy ending 'at-the-cost-of-eternal-loss'.