Weapons in Vallinor?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Well, there is such a thing as bowfishing. But more to the point the fact that just beacusev the Teleri lived by the sea does not mean they didn't hunt land game when it was available. Living by the sea does not mean that it forms your exculusive source of food. And how about if they wanted sea birds for supper (people do eat many sorts of sea birds, besides the obvios geese and ducks) They almost certainly had spears too, for killing things like very big fish and seals, or at least harpoons (and what essentially is a harpoon but a spear with (possibly) something on the end to make it float or attach it to your arm or the ? while Tolkein didn't say it, I've always sort of assumed that, in a world where things like Olipaunts were wandering around (Valinor is supposed to have every animal in ME and then some) the elves probably still made use of the alatal (spear thrower) so they probably would have had those available too.

The Teleri's hunting game is not out of the question, of course. It just seems odd they would have enough weaponry to actually give the Noldor a good fight, if they only used bows for hunting.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The Teleri's hunting game is not out of the question, of course. It just seems odd they would have enough weaponry to actually give the Noldor a good fight, if they only used bows for hunting.

Let's not forget that the Teleri lived for a long time in Beleriand after the Vanyar and Noldor had left, presumably sustaining themselves through hunting.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Let's not forget that the Teleri lived for a long time in Beleriand after the Vanyar and Noldor had left, presumably sustaining themselves through hunting.

That exposes a good deal of double-standard, if not outright hypocrisy, of the part of the Green-elves of Ossiriand. Consider their complaints about the arrival of Men in Beleriand to Finrod:

'Lord,' they said, 'if you have power over these newcomers, bid them return by the ways that they came, or else to go forward....these folk are hewers of trees and hunters of beasts; therefore we are their unfriends, and if they will not depart, we shall afflict them in all ways that we can.'

Silmarillion Of the Coming of Men Into the West

So for the Noldor and Teleri, hunting was tolerated, but Men were reviled for it. Very telling...

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

That exposes a good deal of double-standard, if not outright hypocrisy, of the part of the Green-elves of Ossiriand. Consider their complaints about the arrival of Men in Beleriand to Finrod:

...

So for the Noldor and Teleri, hunting was tolerated, but Men were reviled for it. Very telling...

Not necessarily. Granted, nothing in this quote suggests that the Green-elves did any hunting at all, it would be easy for them to distinguish between the presumably more humane approach of the Noldor and Sindar on the one hand and the "wholesale slaughter" (to exaggerate slightly) of Men on the other--just as it's possible for modern vegetarians to distinguish between pre-Columbus Native American hunting practices and the kind of hunting and animal-raising that Europeans brought to the scene.

None of which is to suggest in any way that the Edain were anywhere as bad as the slaughter wreaked on the Great Plains bison, for example, but the Green-elves were certainly capable of distinguishing between the actions of their estranged kin and that of the Aftercomers. And, in any case, there is ample evidence that the Green-elves were not particularly close with the Noldor or Sindar--"tolerate" seems an appropriate term for their relationship, provided it still has some of the sense of "put up with."

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The Teleri's hunting game is not out of the question, of course. It just seems odd they would have enough weaponry to actually give the Noldor a good fight, if they only used bows for hunting.

I actually don't see any problem here. Hunting birds would actually be GREAT practice in archery, your basically working at shooting small moving targets. Get good at that (and in a society where part of your diet relyed on those birds, you probably would get pretty good, pretty fast, as a simple matter of survival). Compared to that, a Noldor warrior would actually be a pretty easy target, he's bigger, he's slower and he has one less plane to move around in. The armor might provide some trouble, but armor isn't really all that great and anti arrow work (especially since no qualified archer would be trying to directly shoot through it, he'd be doing the arc thing to add the force of gravity, or aiming for unarmored bits like the eyes (the elves are usually assumed on this forum to be on roughly anglo-saxon armor tech, so we're probably not talking about full plate with totally face covering helmets, so the eyes would be vulnerable.) And a good bowman can bring down something truly massive, remember Bard brought Smaug down with ONE arrow (yes he is shooting through a chink in Smaugs armor, but the arrow still has to get through layers of skin muscle fat possibly a rib etc. Smaug is HUGE by human standards. If they DID need to get through the armor, they probably would have gone to the spears/javelins. A well muscled man who is a good spear thrower would probably have little trouble, he'd be used to bringing down things like seals and deer which , while they don't wear armor are WAAY bigger than a person. And a person with an alatl is supposedly capable of throwing a spear with enough force it could bring down a mammoth (Alatls were used in Europe Neolithically, phasing out when the mammoths and such megafauna went extinct. In Valinor, where Oliphaunts still were present and comparable megafauna are still extant, they probably kept them.)

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The Teleri's hunting game is not out of the question, of course. It just seems odd they would have enough weaponry to actually give the Noldor a good fight, if they only used bows for hunting.

Well, there is the factor that for them the kinslaying was a home game. They fought on the ships. The Teleri have no problem with being on a ship, but for the Noldor it's an awkward and unfamiliar place to fight. Also, seafaring men are used to the swaying (and there is some swaying even in the port), but it would be like an earthquake for the Noldor. I would not be surprised if they felt as unconfortable as Sam Gamgee in a boat.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Not necessarily. Granted, nothing in this quote suggests that the Green-elves did any hunting at all, it would be easy for them to distinguish between the presumably more humane approach of the Noldor and Sindar on the one hand and the "wholesale slaughter" (to exaggerate slightly) of Men on the other--just as it's possible for modern vegetarians to distinguish between pre-Columbus Native American hunting practices and the kind of hunting and animal-raising that Europeans brought to the scene.

It still seems to me as if the Green-elves just used the hunting as a pretense for their disdain. In the quote, they fail to qualify the hunting actions of the Men as extreme in any way; they just put a general frown upon it.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Well, there is the factor that for them the kinslaying was a home game. They fought on the ships. The Teleri have no problem with being on a ship, but for the Noldor it's an awkward and unfamiliar place to fight. Also, seafaring men are used to the swaying (and there is some swaying even in the port), but it would be like an earthquake for the Noldor. I would not be surprised if they felt as unconfortable as Sam Gamgee in a boat.

I'm not trying to say the Teleri were necessarily in the wrong for having bows. It seems clear that it was the Noldor's possession of swords that really turned the tide there, and swords they would apparently not have had if they hadn't listened to Melkor speaking through Fëanor. There are indeed benign uses for bows, but for swords as used by the Noldor, only one darker purpose.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I'm not trying to say the Teleri were necessarily in the wrong for having bows. It seems clear that it was the Noldor's possession of swords that really turned the tide there, and swords they would apparently not have had if they hadn't listened to Melkor speaking through Fëanor. There are indeed benign uses for bows, but for swords as used by the Noldor, only one darker purpose.

I'm not saying you said that. What I meant is that the Teleri didn't need superior or even equal - or even near equal - weapons to compete with the Noldor in battle. The pure advantage of being on a ship makes up for the lack of swords. The Teleri would have faired this way if their best blade was a pocket knife. Plus, half the Noldor didn't know which side is the bad guys, which also reduces their advantage they have from weapons.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I'm not trying to say the Teleri were necessarily in the wrong for having bows. It seems clear that it was the Noldor's possession of swords that really turned the tide there, and swords they would apparently not have had if they hadn't listened to Melkor speaking through Fëanor. There are indeed benign uses for bows, but for swords as used by the Noldor, only one darker purpose.

It's not like Fëanor and the Noldor were the first to have weapons in Valinor. The Vala Oromë and his Maiar hunting parties were already outfitted with a full complement of weapons, no doubt crafted by Aulë. The Book of Lost Tales refers to Oromë's halls in Valimar as crammed full of weapons, hides and hunting trophies.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

It's not like Fëanor and the Noldor were the first to have weapons in Valinor. The Vala Oromë and his Maiar hunting parties were already outfitted with a full complement of weapons, no doubt crafted by Aulë. The Book of Lost Tales refers to Oromë's halls in Valimar as crammed full of weapons, hides and hunting trophies.

Well, the fact seems to be that the Noldor were the first to make swords, and their impetus for doing so, at least in the Silm, was Melkor. That alone puts an evil cast on the sword possession.

[Faramir Jones]

Aeglos, welcome to the Downs! You started a very interesting thread, and asked a good question:

And if the valar saw the elves making weapons why didnt they stop them, because there was no need for it, and could only be used to bad things like violence and murder. So what do you think?

My view is that the Valar were content to let the Noldor govern themselves, and only intervened when things got out of hand, which they did in the case of Fëanor, who threatened violence and murder with a weapon he made.

Under Morgoth's influence, as well as making weapons, Fëanor spoke out against the Valar. Fingolfin brought up this matter at a meeting before their father, Finwë, asking what he was going to go about Fëanor, pointing out that he (Finwë) was one of those who originally spoke before the Elves, urging that they go to Valinor, saying that if he was still of the same mind, he had at least two sons (Fingolfin and Finarfin) to support him.

Fëanor turned up armed, accused Fingolfin of usurping his place, and threatened him with his sword. When Fingolfin left, Fëanor followed him, and again threatened him with his sword, this time saying that he might kill him if he usurped his place. 'See, half brother! This is sharper than thy tongue. Try but once more to usurp my place and the love of my father, and maybe it will rid the Noldor of one who seeks to be the master of thralls'. Fingolfin left without saying anything in reply.

I don't think anyone here would be surprised that the Valar then intervened in an incident where the King of the Noldor's eldest son turned up armed at a peaceful meeting, and twice threatened his brother with a sword, the second time implying that he might kill him. Also, Fëanor's language could be seen as particularly insulting, calling the Noldor 'thralls', i.e. slaves, implying that his people were slaves, presumably of the Valar.

Even when it was found out that Melkor's influence was at the back of what happened, the Valar, rightly, said that Fëanor was still responsible for his actions and would be exiled. At least Fëanor didn't give the excuse of 'Melkor made me do it!'

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

....That alone puts an evil cast on the sword possession.

Thus the word sordid.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

It still seems to me as if the Green-elves just used the hunting as a pretense for their disdain. In the quote, they fail to qualify the hunting actions of the Men as extreme in any way; they just put a general frown upon it.

I don't think the main issue here is that the newcomers hunted and cut down trees in general but rather that they did it in Ossirand, the land of the Green Elves. They were unwanted intruders and thus unwelcome. Naturally it would add fuel to the fire if the Edain also were less in harmony with nature than the Green Elves.