Wizard Gone Missing

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

In that case though, wouldn't Tolkien have run the risk of Gandalf being the "usual" storybook wizard?
To me, the information about why he was there, his limitations, and sacrifices, are what makes him so endearing.

I'd say that such a question underestimates Tolkien. What you are suggesting is that trading in mystery for endearment is a good exchange in your opinion. I contend that the trade-off isn't necessary.

Originally Posted by Jallanite

I am not sure what you are talking about with your “Celtic wizard” and “Germanic wizard″. There are lots of Germanic tales and lots of Celtic tales and the wizards in them are not alike, or perhaps better, very much alike. I don’t see this distinction you are making. You need to indicate which wizards you are talking about in which stories.

It's a minor issue; at the risk of going off on a major and useless tangent, the Celtic wizard is druidic, his milieu that of human sacrifice and unity with nature. The Germanic/Nordic (I must include the term) wizard with control of the elements - earth, wind, fire, ice, etc. Both have staves of oak, but their use of them is different in the general way I've described above.

The pictures you link are interesting. It's hard to know what was symbolized in medieval paintings and what was not; that is to say, did the red cloak mean anything more than its color? As for the late 1800s pictures, they reflect the Celtic strangeness that I think Tolkien didn't care for.

I'm not convinced that it's an issue of mysteriousness. I think of Gandalf outside the gate of Moria and there he seems very Germanic. So too on the Bridge of Khazad-dum. Even more so in his first treatment of Wormtongue and Theoden. Even the name, "stormcrow" is delightfully reminiscent of that Germanic feel. I suppose I pretty much like the portrayal of Gandalf throughout LotR. What I find disappointing is what one learns about him from the Silmarillion.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

I'd say that such a question underestimates Tolkien. What you are suggesting is that trading in mystery for endearment is a good exchange in your opinion. I contend that the trade-off isn't necessary.

Well, weren't you saying that Tolkien hadn't managed to successfully meld the "mystery" and the history?
I personally don't think the exchange was really done. I see "mystery" Gandalf in places later in the book, such as when he's up in the tree about to hurtle down on the goblins and wargs "like a thunderbolt". That to me is pretty evocative of "old-time' wizards.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

I'd say that such a question underestimates Tolkien. What you are suggesting is that trading in mystery for endearment is a good exchange in your opinion. I contend that the trade-off isn't necessary.

I never suggested that at all. Never. I just suggested that some people prefer an origin and some people don’t.

It's a minor issue; at the risk of going off on a major and useless tangent, the Celtic wizard is druidic, his milieu that of human sacrifice and unity with nature. The Germanic/Nordic (I must include the term) wizard with control of the elements - earth, wind, fire, ice, etc. Both have staves of oak, but their use of them is different in the general way I've described above.

Not a clue what you are talking about. Have you gotten your ideas from some single idiosyncratic book? See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druid#I..._Welsh_records for druids in medieval Irish and Welsh tales. Which medieval story has a Germanic or Celtic wizard that has control of the elements “earth, wind, fire, ice, etc.” If it is just one story, that proves nothing, as it was general medieval European belief that everything was composed of the basic elements earth, water, air, and fire. I don’t see any particular difference why earth, air, water, and fire might not be mentioned in a story about either Celtic or Germanic wizards, although I don’t recall such a story. Wizards are far more common in Irish and Welsh tales than in Germanic tales if that counts. The druidic wizards of Irish legend are sometimes connected with sacrifice as the tales are set in pagan times. Medieval Germanic wizards are rare outside of Arthurian tales and I only recall two explicit Germanic non-Arthurian wizards, neither much like Gandalf. I am sure there are some more that I don’t now recall.,

The pictures you link are interesting. It's hard to know what was symbolized in medieval paintings and what was not; that is to say, did the red cloak mean anything more than its color? As for the late 1800s pictures, they reflect the Celtic strangeness that I think Tolkien didn't care for.

What are you talking about? My point is that the pointed hat is a modern idea, not found very much in genuine medieval pictures. And the wand or staff given to Merlin in some modern pictures is also not in most medieval pictures of Merlin or other wizards. Tolkien presumably included them because he wanted Gandalf to appear immediately as an iconic wizard as an iconic wizard appears in relatively modern sources.

I'm not convinced that it's an issue of mysteriousness. I think of Gandalf outside the gate of Moria and there he seems very Germanic. So too on the Bridge of Khazad-dum. Even more so in his first treatment of Wormtongue and Theoden. Even the name, "stormcrow" is delightfully reminiscent of that Germanic feel. I suppose I pretty much like the portrayal of Gandalf throughout LotR.

Was Merlin mysterious? Not much more than Gandalf. Merlin was the son of some sort of incubus or devil by a mortal woman. Most other wizards, whether Celtic or Germanic are mysterious as it is not explained where they got their powers from. Sometimes it is just explained that they got their knowledge from study.

The epithet stormcrow should sound Germanic as it was applied to Gandalf by the Rohirrim and so is to be understood as a translated Old English name.

What I find disappointing is what one learns about him from the Silmarillion.

There are are only two sentences about Olórin in The Silmarillion near the end of the section “Of the Maiar” in the “Valaquenta”. Gandalf as Olórin otherwise is mentioned once in the text of The Lord of the Rings and also in Appendix B which tells the most.

I was hoping you could say what you mean by a Germanic and Celtic wizard, but apparently you can’t, other than that a wizard feels either Germanic or Celtic to you, but possibly to no-one else.

[Formendacil]

For what it's worth, the "mysterious wizard Gandalf" that Elempi identifies with the first section of The Hobbit (prior to his return at the Lonely Mountain) belongs entirely to the earlier draft of the book where the wizard was called Bladorthin and "Gandalf" was the name of the Dwarf we know as Thorin.

The new names arrived around the time Thorin & Co. reached the Lonely Mountain--thus freeing up the name "Bladorthin" to belong to the king of the undelivered spears--and when the wizard returned to the stage he was Gandalf.

It's interesting to me that Elempi sees "Nordic/Germanic" writ heavily on the older parts of the wizard because in those parts of the story (and they are not greatly different from the finished book) he bears an Elvish name! Tolkien didn't change his name to the Norse "Gandalfr" until he reached the point where LMP thinks the Norse-ness waned.

(N.B. All the above derives from reading Rateliff's [i]History of the Hobbit[/b].)

[littlemanpoet]

Wow, Formy! I think you've done the most to explicate the differences I see. In my struggle to try to identify the differences, I have given them the opposite epithets from Tolkien's original names. I'm likely to be wrong in my epithets, but not in what I notice. I think it boils down to this: I like best Tolkien's evocation of the old European wizard (whether Celtic or Germanic or Nordic doesn't matter at all!), and very much appreciate Gandalf in all of Tolkien's evocations. Regardless of how infrequently Tolkien refers to Gandalf as Olorin, he did so; it was part of his milieu as published.

I do find it interesting and somehow informative (of what, I'm not sure yet) that Gandalf is an unfallen Maiar whereas Merlin is a demon-spawn: Tolkien has scrubbed his wizard clean of all the nasty origin.

[TheLostPilgrim]

Gandalf is sort of the inverse of Merlin:

Both advise and counsel but use different means. Gandalf always uses good to reach good ends. Merlin sometimes uses evil (IE the rape of Igrayne) to reach good ends. They share the aim of ultimately bringing the realms they inhabit to goodness, to right.

Perhaps Merlin was one of the Blue Wizards in latter days, with the stories being somewhat twisted through time.

[Galadriel55]

I am not as learned in various lores as the other people who posted on this thread, but I want to give my two cents. While it's hard for me to differentiate between a "Germanic" and a "Norse" wizard, I can see the difference between that and a "Celtic" one. It's not so much about the correct terminology as being able to convey the right image.

Thinking of wizards' appearances I remembered one bit of Norse mythology that describes Odin - while he is a warrior, he would sometimes take the shape of an old man with a long beard leaning on a staff, wearing a big hat and a cloak. Sounds familiar? And though one of his aspects is concerned with magic (my memory is a bit hazy here) I don't recall him doing that magic through the influence of nature (ie the elements) - but again, I can't be sure about that last point.

There are two ways to do magic/miracles/whatever you want to call it. You could do it with the nature, or against the nature. An example of "with" would be Sam asking for light and water in Mordor and - surprise - they found water and it becomes light. It's as if someone actually influences the nature. An example of "against" would be Gandalf setting the place on fire to scare off wargs and werewolves near Moria. It's less of an act through the means of nature and more of an act independent of nature.

Sometimes it's hard to draw a clear line between the two, but at any rate Gandalf, when doing "magic", tends to go against nature. I would say that this is more Nordic than Celtic.

Then, there is an interesting aspect I noticed regarding the Russian translation of LOTR. There are words in Russian with a similar etymology as the word wizard - they also stem from the words wisdom, knowledge. But the translators did not use any of these words; they chose the non-Slavic term mag (which stems from the same roots as magic). Now to put in a word for the Slavic "wizards" - they tend to do magic with nature (so are closer in this sense to Celtic wizards than to Norse ones). On the other hand, mag is associated more with magic against nature. I know that the translators are not Tolkien, but in my opinion this shows very much what sort of wizard they believed Gandalf to be.


However, the division of Norse/Germanic/Celtic is not really the point. The question is about how and why Gandalf changes.

As for his changes in TH, I agree with what Legate has said - ie that how you act depends on where and when. But also I think that the mood of the entire book becomes more grave at that point. Well, the change begins a bit earlier, but the point is that overall the Mountain chapters are much graver than An Unexpected Party. Bilbo gains some wisdom and maturity, the Dwarves get an aspect of seriousness and a passionate longing for their home in addition to their earlier depiction, the "adventure" becomes much more dangerous and complex than a hobbit-and-dwarf walking party... So just as everything changes, so does Gandalf's personality.

But I think it is not until LOTR that his real wisdom and power shine through. In TH, even at the end, he is still more of a comical-wizard, "conjuring cheap tricks". In LOTR, while he still does some of that "magic", his greater power is not is his little tricks. They seem petty compared to the power of his will and thought. But he is just that - will and wisdom clothed in a body. When he becomes Gandalf the White, it is as if he is given special permission to act, in addition to what he had as Gandalf the Grey. Not that he did not act before, but those were more passive actions, in a sense.

So Gandalf just gains and gains as he goes along, and we gain information about him as we go along (in book terms). Doesn't really lose anything, but some aspects are merely overshadowed.

[littlemanpoet]

The new names arrived around the time Thorin & Co. reached the Lonely Mountain--thus freeing up the name "Bladorthin" to belong to the king of the undelivered spears--and when the wizard returned to the stage he was Gandalf.

This is the anchor I have needed. It fits with what I've been struggling to say. The change in Gandalf occurs between his disappearance just before Mirkwood, and his return just before the Battle of Five Armies.

Does Rateliff's book say that "Bladorthin" is an Elvish name?

I'm not sure it matters. If I were a writer in Tolkien's place, I would want to make my wizard have a very different kind of name from my Dwarves. Bladorthin is very different; Tolkien realized later that Gandalf is also different from the other Dwarvish names, having the root "elf" in it. So in his wizard he always had an "Elvish" quality.

For Tolkien, it seems, "Elvish" meant a different kind of magic than that of the Dwarves. Yet both are perhaps Nordic/Germanic as opposed to Celtic. (Thanks for your help in clearing that up a bit, Galadriel55).

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

...I do find it interesting and somehow informative (of what, I'm not sure yet) that Gandalf is an unfallen Maiar whereas Merlin is a demon-spawn: Tolkien has scrubbed his wizard clean of all the nasty origin.

I suspect that Merlin, taken as an archetype, was the victim of 'bad press'. The conquering Romans could not defeat them so they demonised them. What we have are stories told by the victors in the battle for Europe south of the Rhine.

Germania was the name given to peoples North of the Rhine, regardless of actual language or alliances. They did not call themselves Germans/Germanic.
The defining difference between Celtic (aka Keltoi, or Gaulish, Galician, Galatian...)and Germanic societies was the degree of Romanisation.
The name-calling cuts both ways. Some of those 'Germanic' peoples had names for Romanised peoples too, such as 'wealas'. This is a term that came to be associated with oath breaking (to 'welsch' on a deal) and with those tribes driven into Western Britain (Wales and Cornwealas). These people did not call themselves Welsh, we gave them that name.

It seems logical to suppose that apparent differences in their Wise men (I could say women too, but I am getting to Gandalf's roots rather than Galadriel's) were more the result of the changing agendas of their respective societies. The Romans kept meeting resistance to their rule across Europe. Someone or some group of people kept uniting forces against them on both sides of the Rhine. What better way to tackle these elusive tale-tellers and king-makers than to demonise them in new tales?

My point is that Norman tales calling Merlin "demon spawn", or your saying he has a "nasty origin", seems to me the same as calling Gandalf "Storm-crow" or "Lathspel"/"Ill-news". Ill news for who?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Tolkien had a picture postcard on which he wrote "origin of Gandalf"; it was of a painting by the German artist Josef Madlener depicting a cloaked, long-bearded old man in a mountain forest petting a fawn, entitled "Der Berggeist" or The Mountain-spirit. http://tolkiengateway.net/w/images/9..._Berggeist.jpg

In other words, pretty Germanic.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Tolkien had a picture postcard on which he wrote "origin of Gandalf"; it was of a painting by the German artist Josef Madlener depicting a cloaked, long-bearded old man in a mountain forest petting a fawn, entitled "Der Berggeist" or The Mountain-spirit. http://tolkiengateway.net/w/images/9..._Berggeist.jpg

In other words, pretty Germanic.

Rübezahl!!! (Or, in my mothertongue, Krakonoš!!)

Never thought about that - but - now that I see it, it all makes sense! Okay, this guy is really a big thing in the Czech folklore (he is said to reside in the mountains which border Germany, and Poland, too, and obviously those two also have him in their culture, though I am not sure how strong the motive is there, but speaking from my perspective, he is really well known). It would never have occured to me to think of him as having anything to do with Gandalf (he's really a sort of mountain-spirit, which Gandalf obviously isn't), but his behavior is really of pretty much the same sort, now that I think about it.

There was a sort of TV "good-night for children" series of fairytales, made I think sometime in the 80's, which basically all the Czech children know, and there the main hero was Krakonoš - exactly this guy - and I never realised it, but now when I think about it, he had a lot of "Gandalf"-elements in him. Exactly this sort of trickster-type Gandalf, though. (The series revolved around an evil greedy duke who was exploiting his poor servants, and always did something nasty, like wanted to steal from someone or hunt some poor fluffy animals in the woods, and this Krakonoš always came and saved the day by some trick. He was sort of "deus ex machina".)

Here for example is part of one episode from the TV series where the evil duke is punished because he wanted to steal food from animals in the woods - I suggest watching something like from 4:07-4:20, where you can see Krakonoš (Rübezahl) with his typical pipe (one more Gandalfish attribute). Or here is one full episode (in Czech) where he disguises himself as an important noble guest - I suggest watching something like 7:20-7:40 to get the idea, where Krakonoš reverts back to his normal form (non-disguised). This is a very Hobbit-Gandalf-y type of thing to do, in my opinion, or something I could imagine the Gandalf from the Hobbit to do. He also scorns the duke in a rather Gandalf-y way (you can just tell from the tone of the voice). This "lightning effect" was actually sort of a signature move of his whenever he appeared or when his true nature was revealed. Gandalf Uncloaked?

(Although if you watch e.g. a bit from 1:50 on, he has much pretty strong Radagast-y or Tom Bombadil-y side, too. He also had this funny little bird to deliver messages and spy for him.)

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Tolkien had a picture postcard on which he wrote "origin of Gandalf"; it was of a painting by the German artist Josef Madlener depicting a cloaked, long-bearded old man in a mountain forest petting a fawn, entitled "Der Berggeist" or The Mountain-spirit. http://tolkiengateway.net/w/images/9..._Berggeist.jpg

In other words, pretty Germanic.

The artist was a contemporary of Tolkien's, and thus it's a modern depiction. So I'd say the painting is a Romantic portrayal of a wizard. The artist happens to be Germanic but is that enough to say Gandalf is too?

This wizard's scarlet cloak is interesting. Wearing red is an ancient and widespread indication of high status, scarlet dye was particularly expensive, and there were rules about who was allowed to wear it. Whatever language he is supposed to have spoken this guy would have had similar status to a cardinal.