Would the Half-Elven vanish if they wore an elven ring?

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Welcome.

Thank you for the welcome.

The great Elven rings, the Three held by the Elves and the Seven of the Dwarves, did not cause anyone to vanish. There is no support to say that the Nine Rings Sauron gave to Men made them vanish either. They eventually passed into Wraithdom, but that doesn't mean they instantly vanished once they put them on.

The 3, the 9 and the 7 were all included in the Great Rings made by the elves. The dwarves did not vanish, because of their stubborn nature. Gandalf though does strongly imply ALL of the great rings caused mortals to turn invisible.

Here is the quote.

'A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades, he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings.'

From this it is fair to assume all the Great Rings caused mortals to turn invisible. If this was not the case, then the One Ring granting Frodo invisibility would have been used as evidence of it being the One and not just another of the Great Rings.

We are only talking about the One Ring here, as that is the only one of the rings that caused anyone to vanish. As far as Earendil or Elwing putting on the One Ring, any answer would simply be conjecture. So your guess is as good as mine. Although I would like to think that Earendil would pass on putting on the One Ring.

I have provided evidence to suggest all the Great Rings caused invisibility. Earendil wielded the full power of the Elessar and the Silmaril. He seems to have greater innate power than Elrond. I agree that any answer would be conjecture, but this does not mean the conjecture is not based on reasonable evidence.

I agree though, that Earendil would likely pass on using the One Ring.

Nowhere is it said that the Silmarils were hallowed against mortal touch. Why would they be? Mortals weren't even around when Feanor created the Silmarils, and the fact Beren held them without harm nullifies that argument; whereas Morgoth, Maedhros and Maglor all suffered from their touch. It has more to do with the worth and motives of the individual than race or mortality.

The Silmarils were hallowed by Varda against mortal and evil. Beren's case is rare exception. Morgoth was evil and after the multiple kinslayings I think it judged Maedhros and Maglor evil too or at least they would fall under the unclean category.

The quote can be found in the Silmarillion.

And Varda hallowed the Silmarils, so that therefore no mortal flesh, nor hands unclean, nor anything of evil will might touch them, but it was scorched and withered;

Again, the Elven Ring Elrond wore did not confer invisibility.

All the great rings confer invisibility. Gandalf tells us this and logically they would have to. Or else the Wise would be very foolish indeed not to realise than Bilbo had the One Ring.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

All the great rings confer invisibility. Gandalf tells us this and logically they would have to. Or else the Wise would be very foolish indeed not to realise than Bilbo had the One Ring.

No, they did not all confer invisibility. You are using a character in a book without complete knowledge of the subject to bolster your point. I prefer the author himself:

Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter #131

The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful rings, almost solely of their own imagination, and directed to the preservation of beauty: they did not confer invisibility.

If one considers that the Dwarves, too, were mortal and did not disappear, I would say Gandalf did not know what he's talking about. But that's okay, he makes false assumptions elsewhere in the book. He is not infallible. In any case, the Three Elven Rings were made solely by the Elves, and Sauron had no hand in their making; therefore, none of the powers conferred by Sauron were upon them.

The men who held the Nine Rings did not vanish instantly either. They could, if they wished, turn invisible, but they could remain visible wearing the Rings:

Originally Posted by The Silmarillion

"...those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great wealth...They had, as it seemed, unending life, yet life became unendurable to them. They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men..."

In regards to Beren and his son, both of whom held a Silmaril unscathed, I would suggest Varda must not have been very good with spells.

[Galadriel55]

Beren was a very very very VERY special case. And Dior was not strictly mortal.

PS: welcome to the Downs, cellurdur!

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

No, they did not all confer invisibility. You are using a character in a book without complete knowledge of the subject to bolster your point. I prefer the author himself:

I had not seen that letter from Tolkien. His word appears to be final and Gandalf was wrong. This makes sense, because unlike the other rings, the 3 were never touched by mortal hands.

If one considers that the Dwarves, too, were mortal and did not disappear, I would say Gandalf did not know what he's talking about. But that's okay, he makes false assumptions elsewhere in the book. He is not infallible. In any case, the Three Elven Rings were made solely by the Elves, and Sauron had no hand in their making; therefore, none of the powers conferred by Sauron were upon them.

The dwarves are a special case. Aule made them very strong and sufficient. Nothing really worked on them. Really apart from greed and revenge, I don't think the dwarves were ever corrupted.

I agree Gandalf was fallible and he appears to be wrong. There was no difference between the 7 and the 9. The only distinction came in where they were hidden and to whom they were given by Sauron. It is even possible that some of the recovered 7 (the 3 Sauron had recovered were used by mortal servants of Sauron).

I think Gandalf is making a valid assumption. If the One ring conferred invisibility and the other 16 Great Rings did then he assumed so did the 3. Though a logical assumption, Tolkien confirms he was wrong.

The men who held the Nine Rings did not vanish instantly either. They could, if they wished, turn invisible, but they could remain visible wearing the Rings:

The quote from the Silmarillion does not suggest they could turn off and on the invisibility when they wanted. It could just mean that when they CHOSE to wear the ring they turned invisible. Impossible to judge for certain.

In regards to Beren and his son, both of whom held a Silmaril unscathed, I would suggest Varda must not have been very good with spells.

Beren was destined to obtain a Silmaril and was a special case. The Valar allowed it. Him being able to touch it is written as if it something noteworthy.

As he closed it in his hand, the radiance welled through his living flesh, and his hand became as a shining lamp; but the jewel suffered his touch and hurt him not.

As for Dior I am not convinced he was immortal. Until Earendil's voyage it seems the Valar were still unsure of what to do with the Half-Elven. It is only after Earendil enters Valinor do they make a decree. A similar situation appears to be the rehousing of elvish bodies. In Morgoth's ring Tolkien implies Manwe had yet no firm answer when the dark elves started dying and had to consult with Eru to find a solution. I would assume there was similar confusion about the Half-elven at that point.

Beren was a very very very VERY special case. And Dior was not strictly mortal.

PS: welcome to the Downs, cellurdur!

Thanks for the welcome and agree with what you said Galadriel55.

I don't think there had yet been a ruling from the Valar/Eru about Dior when he was alive.
__________________

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I had not seen that letter from Tolkien. His word appears to be final and Gandalf was wrong. This makes sense, because unlike the other rings, the 3 were never touched by mortal hands.

Gandalf was wearing one of the Elven rings, Narya, the Ring of Fire, given to him by Círdan when Gandalf first came to Middle-earth. It didn’t make him automatically invisible. Another Elven ring was worn by Galadriel, who was not automatically made invisible by it. The third Elven ring was worn by Elrond, who also was not automatically made invisible by it. Nor are do any of these three apparently fear being eventually turned into wraiths because of wearing an Elven-ring.

The first half of the Milton Waldmam letter appears in the “Preface to the Second Edition” in all printings of The Silmarillion since 1999 and so is easily found. It says, in part:

And finally they [the rings partly created by Sauron] had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron (‘the Necromancer’: so he is called as he cast a fleeting shadow and presage on the pages of The Hobbit): such a rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible

Gandalf must be imagined to have well known about the powers of the Elven rings compared to those Rings of Power in which Sauron had a hand. That Gandalf appears to confuse the two types of rings in his explication to Frodo appears to me to be likely a confusion introduced by Tolkien who does not properly distinguish them in the words he puts into Gandàlf’s mouth. Tolkien has Gandalf claim that he believes no case of a bearer of a Great Ring of Power who freely gave up the ring to another is known, yet Gandalf himself is secretly wearing Narya at the time which was given up freely to Gandalf by Cíirdan.

As for Dior I am not convinced he was immortal. Until Earendil's voyage it seems the Valar were still unsure of what to do with the Half-Elven. It is only after Earendil enters Valinor do they make a decree.

When Dior was slain his spirit would have been summoned to Mandos and would either be placed among the other Elves there or be placed among Men to be sent out of the world. That would have been the point where the Valar would have had to decide whether Dior was a mortal Man or an immortal Elf. But Tolkien does not say.

A similar situation appears to be the rehousing of elvish bodies. In Morgoth's ring Tolkien implies Manwe had yet no firm answer when the dark elves started dying and had to consult with Eru to find a solution.

I don’t recall this. Please cite the page where this is found. Note that in the published Silmarillion some Elves had already been taken by Melkor before the existence of the Elves was known to any of the Valar.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by jallanite

Gandalf was wearing one of the Elven rings, Narya, the Ring of Fire, given to him by Círdan when Gandalf first came to Middle-earth. It didn’t make him automatically invisible. Another Elven ring was worn by Galadriel, who was not automatically made invisible by it. The third Elven ring was worn by Elrond, who also was not automatically made invisible by it. Nor are do any of these three apparently fear being eventually turned into wraiths because of wearing an Elven-ring.

The first half of the Milton Waldmam letter appears in the “Preface to the Second Edition” in all printings of The Silmarillion since 1999 and so is easily found. It says, in part:

And finally they [the rings partly created by Sauron] had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron (‘the Necromancer’: so he is called as he cast a fleeting shadow and presage on the pages of The Hobbit): such a rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible

Gandalf must be imagined to have well known about the powers of the Elven rings compared to those Rings of Power in which Sauron had a hand. That Gandalf appears to confuse the two types of rings in his explication to Frodo appears to me to be likely a confusion introduced by Tolkien who does not properly distinguish them in the words he puts into Gandàlf’s mouth. Tolkien has Gandalf claim that he believes no case of a bearer of a Great Ring of Power who freely gave up the ring to another is known, yet Gandalf himself is secretly wearing Narya at the time which was given up freely to Gandalf by Cíirdan.

Galadriel, Cirdan, Gandalf and even Elrond at the time were all immortals. Only mortals turn invisible when they wear a great ring and even then the quote has been provided showing that the 3 were alone did not confer invisibility. No mortal hands ever touched the 3. The 3 alone were different from the other 16. If the 16 Sauron stole bestowed invisibility to immortals and the One in addition, then it's understandable why Gandalf may have thought the 3 would too.

When Dior was slain his spirit would have been summoned to Mandos and would either be placed among the other Elves there or be placed among Men to be sent out of the world. That would have been the point where the Valar would have had to decide whether Dior was a mortal Man or an immortal Elf. But Tolkien does not say.

Yes, but it does not mean a decision had been made whilst he was alive and holding the Silmaril. Only when Earendil arrives does the debate begins about whether he is an Elf or Man.

I don’t recall this. Please cite the page where this is found. Note that in the published Silmarillion some Elves had already been taken by Melkor before the existence of the Elves was known to any of the Valar.

Taken by Melkor does not mean they have been killed yet. It was the case of Miriel, which really brought the topic to a head. This conversation is written after Laws and Customs. It can be found in Morgoth's ring page 361.

Here is a quote form the start.

Be hold an evil appears in Arda that we did not look for: the First born Children, whom you Thou madest immortal suffer now severance of spirit and body.

After this conversation they basically conclude that elves should have a new body created for them. Prior to Miriel it seems no elf had ever been brought back from the halls of Mandos.

Back to Dior I would imagine a similar situation had arisen. There was no definite answer as to whether Dior was mortal or not. Only with the arrival of Earendil was the matter settled.

That being said, since there was no law set out, I find it hard and unlikely that Dior would not have been given a choice. He spent all his life with the elves, married an elf and ruled an elvish kingdom. To condemn him to eternal seperation from his family, without forewarning seems unduly harsh.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Back to Dior I would imagine a similar situation had arisen. There was no definite answer as to whether Dior was mortal or not. Only with the arrival of Earendil was the matter settled.

I'm not so sure there was question about Dior. I would suggest it worked out this way (tho little was made explicit):

• Beren and Luthien shose to be mortal, so their son Dior was mortal.
• Dior (a mortal) married Nimloth of Doriath (kinswoman of Celeborn), a full Elf, so their daughtor Elwing was a Half-Elf.
• Tuor, a mortal, married Idril, a full Elf, so their son Earendil was a Half-Elf.
• Then Earendil, a Half-Elf, married Elwing, a Half-Elf --- and that really muddied the waters .
• Thus Eros & Elrond were sons of Half-Elves - on both sides.

So when two Half-Elves show up in Valinor - the Valar were in a quandry and have to decide what to do and Manwe rendered his decision to give them (and their children) the choice.

Nothing was said about Dior. And I think that was because nothing *needed* to be decided - he was a mortal, just like both of his parents - q.e.d.

[Galadriel55]

My only disagreement with you here, Puddleglum, is that though Luthien chose to be mortal, in my eyes she never became a (wo)Man. Half-Elven can chose between Elves and Men because they have the blood of both. Luthien is a Half Elf... Half Maia. So in my opinion she was allowed to leave the circles of the world with Beren, but she could never be one of the Edain.

[Alfirin]

That does make some sense, especially how it applies to later generations i.e. that it seems as if, when an elf (or half elf) chooses mortality that applies not only to themselves, but all thier descendents. I am thinking here of Elros. When he chooses the mortal life (i.e. to become Tar-Minyutar, first king of Numenor) all of his descendents also become fully mortal. Elrond's line keep the choice, Elros's loses it. So the system is sort of skewed in favor of choosing mortal (each individual who makes the choice is equally free to make either, but a choice of mortality also takes the right to choose away from any children you may have, while choosing immortal doesn't) I may be wrong (after all we are looking at a very small number of examples, so the results may be a little biased) but at least that is how it seems to me (and if the argument is that Elros's children don't get the choice becuse they are 3/4 mortal, I would argue that by that logic, Elrond's should also not have gotten it; as 3/4 elf, they should have HAD to be immortal)

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

I'm not so sure there was question about Dior. I would suggest it worked out this way (tho little was made explicit):

• Beren and Luthien shose to be mortal, so their son Dior was mortal.
• Dior (a mortal) married Nimloth of Doriath (kinswoman of Celeborn), a full Elf, so their daughtor Elwing was a Half-Elf.
• Tuor, a mortal, married Idril, a full Elf, so their son Earendil was a Half-Elf.
• Then Earendil, a Half-Elf, married Elwing, a Half-Elf --- and that really muddied the waters .
• Thus Eros & Elrond were sons of Half-Elves - on both sides.

So when two Half-Elves show up in Valinor - the Valar were in a quandry and have to decide what to do and Manwe rendered his decision to give them (and their children) the choice.

Nothing was said about Dior. And I think that was because nothing *needed* to be decided - he was a mortal, just like both of his parents - q.e.d.

Firstly even if you discount Dior as being halfelven it still leaves his sons: Elurid and Elruin. So the problem the Valar had with deciding the fate of the Half-elven was an issue quite a few years before Earendil turned up.

Secondly Dior was the fist of the Half-elven by his own declaration and the the text calls him of three races. Having an Elvish or Manish fea means more than just being immortal or mortal. Humans cannot use magic and have to rely on sorcery. The descendants of the Luthien retain the ability to use magic and spells from their own innate power. Luthien's great power would still pass on to her son.

Dior's situation as I said is very different from Mithrelas. With Dior there had been no warning given. There was no precedent that was going to be followed. Mithrelas KNEW what she was getting into. Dior did not.

Further more looking at Manwe's ruling it is wrong to say that Elro's children loses the choice. The decision was made that all descendants of mortals no matter how small would be mortal, UNLESS a choice would be given. It is correct to say Manwe interferes and gives the children of Elrond a choice. He could have done the same with Dior and his sons. Considering the situation at the time this seems likely to have occurred. Manwe does retain the ability to make exceptions.

Back on the topic. If Aragorn several generations removed from his elvish ancestors still maintained the ability to use magic, how much more so did his more powerful ancestors? Earendil wields the Elessar on the same level if not greater than Galadriel.

As we can see in the case of dwarves, the invisibility conferred by the ring is not just a matter of being mortal or immortal. It has more to do with the inherent 'magical' powers that mortals and immortals have. In the case of Half-elven, there fea was probably strong enough to use the Great Rings without fading in my opinion.