Tolkien and Psychedelics

[Sindarin Shaman]

Hello, I found this thread through a random google search of "Tolkien's Elves and psychedelics"....Well met. I first read LoTR and the Hobbit 16 years ago as a 14 year old....I have also been interested in shamanism since that time, and altered states of consciousness.

I don't have much time to read the previous posts right now, my apologies, but want to say that I totally relate to your first post, Sardy. Tolkien's words are magnificent, but even what is between them is, too. A man would not have the drive, creativity and inspiration to bother creating Middle Earth if he were not truly interested in contemplating the unlocked human potential...much of which I think he embodies in the Elves....telepathy, awareness of nature's mind, of the inter-connectedness. Reading Tolkien's books are, at best, a psychedelic experience in themselves...(well, everything that has an effect on the mind and soul is a psychedelic experience!....although the word has been given bad press in our modern culture.)

In this video below, at 1:06:13.....that is totally along the vein of Tolkien's Elves! After all, Tolkien was a linguist....a scholar of the meaning of words....in some sense, a shaman in that he had a fascination with the meanings attached to words.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dD72W57wEJc

I hope to revive this discussion! thanks for starting it, and I look forward to sharing with you.

[Sardy]

So glad to see this thread revived!!! I do have a lot more to say on the subject, and will be back when time permits. For now, here is an absolutely wonderful and brilliant essay discussing Tolkien, mind expansion and shamanism:

http://www.realitysandwich.com/tolki..._consciousness

[Ulvenok]

I think this discussion will eventually lead to either smoking or wine, I don't think the hobbits ever were on any psychedelics in the book. If you read it and while doing that found it to be strange or otherwordly. It's probably because you felt you were on psychedelics, not necessarly the hobbits lol. But it's understandable, many of the things Tolkien describes is foreign to most people. Ever been on a lake fishing at noon, ever been on the top of a norwegian mountain flower field? Nature is capable of making one feel one is on psychedelics and Tolkien's description of star light and sleeping in some tree or whatever it was, can to the imaginative reader or maybe unexperienced reader be interpreted as psychedelic.

But how to move away from psychedelics, since the hobbits nor Tolkien ever used them. Was there any wine or smoking god, one would think since smoking is such a big thing in middle earth, there would be some maia "responsible" for it, like Bacchus or Dionysus were to the greeks. I remember the Numenorians came with wine to middle earth, but they must have learnt it from the elves, but where did the elves learn it? As for smoking where did man learn to grow and use that, I don't think the elves were very interested in smoking, more of a hobbit thing. I'm sure some of you would know.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

The hobbits seemed to be the race in which smoking was the most popular, and they didn't really care about gods or religion. If I remember rightly, the Numenoreans worshiped Eru, and no one else before Sauron came and corrupted them. Does anyone know if the elves in Middle-earth actually worshiped the Valar or Eru? They obviously knew about higher beings, but when it came time to acknowledge them, there was just a nod or a moment of silence out of respect, like Faramir did before he ate. In any case, smoking and drinking were not religious practises in Middle-earth. If anyone has a quote or information that would prove that statement wrong, I would love to hear about it.

Christians believe that God created this world for us, that the mountains and trees and oceans, all of the beautiful things found in nature were created as a sort of love letter for us. Obviously, there are many spiritual things to find in nature, or at least things that appear spiritual, because there are many religions and movements centred around it. Many Christians go into a place of natural surroundings, like Denali or Yellowstone to grow closer to God. If we are including religious worship and devotion in with "psychedelics" then, I think, that we could include communing with God in nature. J.R.R. Tolkien was a lover of nature, and I think that he may have specifically searched it out for a spiritual experience. That is evident in his writings. The elves and hobbits had a soft spot for natural surroundings. There are many gardeners (perhaps all) who feel a connection with the dirt that could be described as spiritual.

I'm afraid I've gone off topic, or at least strayed from whatever I was trying to say. I think the main point of this was J.R.R. Tolkien probably had something like one of those "experiences" by communing with God in nature.

[Ulvenok]

I think the main point of this was J.R.R. Tolkien probably had something like one of those "experiences" by communing with God in nature.

Most people who have spent some time in real nature has experienced this, to confuse such an experience with LSD and drugs is however not really well. Maybe the hobbits had eaten some weird mushrooms though, before they encountered the elves.

[Lalwendë]

Upthread I'd mentioned the scary dream Christopher Tolkien used to have of 'Maddo' and now I've found a picture for you. I still find it creepy:Maddo.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

You're right, Lal! Maddo certainly is creepy.

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by Sindarin Shaman

...
Psychedelics are not the point...they are the tools. Tolkien didn't use them, but that is irrelevant. It is the visionary experience that is the point.

I agree.

Psychedelics do fit the bill, but then why do psychedelics do what they do and what, when you think about it, actually constitues a 'psychedelic'? Some, like Mormons I've spoken with, regard caffeine as a drug to be avoided. We are so accustomed to this drug that we play down our tea and coffee, calling them 'stimulants', forgetting the ceremonies which once surrounded them.
Tobacco and alcohol have been mentioned already in this thread, but the same can be said of chocolate which, when prepared to certain recipes, produced various effects from the erotic to the hallucinagenic. I'd also add antidepressants to the list since they too are designed to alter the mind, though perhaps in the opposite way to stimulants.

That said, I'm left with the question of what it is drugs do. Surely they would not work at all unless our brains had a natural equivalent:

I am thinking of something pointed out by Lalwende in another thread concerning the effect of the Rings of Power. Tolkien apparently created ME terms which seem to correspond to the conscious and subconscious, or to the physical and 'Dreamtime' worlds, and that the Rings broke down the barrier between them.

Saruman's ring and his facination with 'many colours' looks rather suspect in the context of drugs. However, I do not believe or mean to suggest Tolkein himself needed to use 'hard' drugs. In fact I'm inclined to think that the transformative powers of the Elves, Maiar and others has its roots in JRR's religion (the shining face of Moses, Elijah's chariot, the face of Stephen...).

Originally Posted by TheGreatElvenWarrior

... Does anyone know if the elves in Middle-earth actually worshiped the Valar or Eru? ...

What does worship actually mean? If you mean "making a lot of noise with the the name of Eru constantly repeated" then no. Thank Eru they do no such thing!
Is silent meditation worship? Among the Quakers and monastic orders it emphatically is. Is contemplating images of heroes worship? Among those who love Icons it is. Is singing among the trees, chanting, making poems and manuscripts worship? If one sets one's mind on what is noble then even washing the dishes can be transformed from drudgery to an act of worship. The Dwarves, Elves and Men of ME all have their own way of expressing the Song which made them.

"...so carefully, carefully with the plates."


.

[Lalwendë]

Just a thought - when we are considering whether Men in Middle-earth 'worshipped' the Valar, it's probably important to note that the Maiar walked amongst them. They were living with their own 'gods' and I wonder whether that would somewhat remove the need or urge for actual 'worship'. I'm comfortable with Men offering thanks and respect, as there's evidence of, but not sure if they would actually 'worship'. I'm not even sure there's evidence they did.

And another thought on 'psychedelics' for the discussion - what about the time shifts experienced in Lorien? Something I have read is that certain experiences can mess with your concept of time. Why do the non-Elves in the Fellowship experience their time in Lorien as fleeting:

"Legolas stirred in his boat. 'Nay, time does not tarry ever,' he said; 'but change and growth is not in all things and places alike. For the Elves the world moves, and it moves both very swift and very slow. Swift, because they themselves change little, and all else fleets by: it is a grief to them. Slow, because they do not count the running years, not for themselves. The passing seasons are but ripples ever repeated in the long long stream. Yet beneath the Sun all things must wear to an end at last.'

"'But the wearing is slow in Lórien,' said Frodo. 'The power of the Lady is on it. Rich are the hours, though short they seem, in Caras Galadhon, where Galadriel wields the Elven-ring.'"

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Just a thought - when we are considering whether Men in Middle-earth 'worshipped' the Valar, it's probably important to note that the Maiar walked amongst them. They were living with their own 'gods' and I wonder whether that would somewhat remove the need or urge for actual 'worship'. I'm comfortable with Men offering thanks and respect, as there's evidence of, but not sure if they would actually 'worship'. I'm not even sure there's evidence they did.

And another thought on 'psychedelics' for the discussion - what about the time shifts experienced in Lorien? Something I have read is that certain experiences can mess with your concept of time. Why do the non-Elves in the Fellowship experience their time in Lorien as fleeting:

That is Tolkien touching on the folklorish motifs of Faery, where a mortal misstep lands one in a different dimension (like Tir Na nOg) which moves outside of time. Such time shifts can be seen in everything from the Irish tale of Oisin to Washington Irving's Rip Van Winkle to Queen's song '39. Although guitarist Brian May, an astrophysicist in his spare time, was also inferring space travel in the song.