Arwen vs. Galadriel

[elbenprincess]

Simply, because Sauron was much more powerful then Galadriel and to do so was impossible for even the Valar to do. Tolkien explains what could be done in detail.

Morgoth was more powerful than Fingolfin and still was wounded by him, he was more powerful than Luthien and still was put to sleep by her so why is it so unbelievable that Galadriel could read some of his thoughts? That doesn´t mean that she was more powerful than him in generel, just that she had an edge oder him in these matter perhaps.

Even among the elven ring holders, Elrond is the most likely to be able to defeat Sauron, not Galadriel in a personal confrontation.

That is NOT true!!! I guess you assume that because of that:

it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter.

That is out of context, that is the full quote:

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him – being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power.Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated.

Both, Galadriel and Elrond thought of themself that they could master the ring, especially Elrond, that was due to the power of the ring. Only Gandalf could master it.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

Morgoth was more powerful than Fingolfin and still was wounded by him, he was more powerful than Luthien and still was put to sleep by her so why is it so unbelievable that Galadriel could read some of his thoughts? That doesn´t mean that she was more powerful than him in generel, just that she had an edge oder him in these matter perhaps.

I have already shown you it was impossible to read the thoughts of another individual the way you like to think.

That is NOT true!!! I guess you assume that because of that:
That is out of context, that is the full quote:

Both, Galadriel and Elrond thought of themself that they could master the ring, especially Elrond, that was due to the power of the ring. Only Gandalf could master it.

No that is not the most likely context. Elrond has shown no lust for power, rejected the idea of creating the rings and seems to have little problem rejecting the ring.

From the grammar it is clear that he Tolkien is writing about mastering the One Ring. We have seen how the One Ring gave even Gollum and Sam delusions of grandeur. So this would not be anything special. He is saying IF Galadriel is correct in her belief she could master the ring, then would the other holders of the ringer ie Cirdan and Elrond possibly Gil-galad too, but Elrond out of all of them had the best chance. Considering the confrontation was one of power it would suggest Elrond had the greatest innate power out of all holders, except Gandalf.

[Boromir88]

Well, Arwen after all was the grand daughter of Galadriel and Celeborn who had spent time in Lorien. But after they depart, I agree with Legate that based on Galadriel and Celeborn not claiming direct rule over the Silvan elves in Lorien, then I can't see why they would suddenly take Arwen as their "Queen."

It reminds me of a peculiar line in The Hobbit which caused much discussion in the CBC thread:

In those days of our tale there were still some people who had both elves and heroes of the North for ancestors, and Elrond the master of the house was their chief.~A Short Rest

This is strange because it seems to imply an official ruling position over his own Elven house and the Dunedain (people who had both elves and heroes of the North for ancestors). I positted that it was an informal courtesy to Elrond, as his close friendship to the Dunedain and vital role in keeping Isildur's line alive. I mean, Elrond even calls Aragorn "my son" at one point.

But calling Elrond "their chief" would still be a courtesy title, because the Kings of Arnor, and then Chieftain of the Dunedain is an official hereditary position, being what is left of Isildur and Elendil's line. Elrond has no claim to the throne of Gondor, but his kinship and close bond to the Dunedain means he is a revered figure and is informally seen as "a chief" to them.

This is how I read Arwen as "Queen of Elves and Men." It is a courtesy as one of the most respected and high lineage elf remaining in Middle-earth (also her marriage to Aragorn). Being the grand-daughter of Galadriel and Celeborn, I can surely imagine she was well received in Lorien, but this doesn't mean had an official rulership title as their "Queen." And of course through Elrond she would have his claims.

However, Elrond never claims the High Kingship of the Noldor after Gil-galad's death, for there is no point. It's like when Arnor ceased to be a political entity, Amlaith had a claim to be the next "King of Arnor" but fell into dispute. Arnor split and Amlaith had every claim to give himself the title of "King of Arnor" but Arnor no longer existed. So, it really becomes moot and an empty title.

[elbenprincess]

No that is not the most likely context. Elrond has shown no lust for power, rejected the idea of creating the rings and seems to have little problem rejecting the ring.

From the grammar it is clear that he Tolkien is writing about mastering the One Ring. We have seen how the One Ring gave even Gollum and Sam delusions of grandeur. So this would not be anything special. He is saying IF Galadriel is correct in her belief she could master the ring, then would the other holders of the ringer ie Cirdan and Elrond possibly Gil-galad too, but Elrond out of all of them had the best chance. Considering the confrontation was one of power it would suggest Elrond had the greatest innate power out of all holders, except Gandalf.

But he is saying that Galadriel is NOT correct in her belief that she could master the ring (because ONLY Gandalf could master the ring) and so is especially Elrond, it was only the deceit of the ring that makes them believe that they could do it.

That´s illogical, one time Tolkiens says that of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him and the next time he says that especially Elrond could master him? Don´t think so. I read it as if especially Elrond conceived of himself as capable of wielding the ring and supplanting the dark lord. You can read it both ways but I don´t think Elrond had the greatest innate power, Galadriel is described an an equal of Feanor (in later writing I know, but nevertheless that was Tolkiens take on her) who was the mightiest of the elves and I think no one would argue that he could match Feanor. Only because Elrond was decended from melian doesn´t mean that he was more powerful than the other elves. (In that logic same would apply for Arwen and the twins)Galadriel for sure and Glorfindel (only after his re-birth)are innately more powerful.

By the way, when was he rejecting the idea of creating the rings, he wasn´t even asked ;-)

However, Elrond never claims the High Kingship of the Noldor after Gil-galad's death

Now it depends which version you believe, but it was CT´s take his father intended Orodreth (sp?) to be father of Gil Galad, so he never could claim the kinship, cause Galadriel would be in the line for queenship.

[radagastly]

Originally posted by cellurdur:

Which quote do you have in mind? It can be found in the People's of Middle Earth, which provide as a lot of details about how Tolkien developed the Appendixes.

These statements do not make the LOTR Appendix and are not fully cannon, but Arwen's role as Queen of Elves is retained. The statements here give some indication of what Tolkien intended by that title.

I was actually hoping you could cite the specific source of this line you quoted in an earlier post:

And the descendants of Elessar through Arwen became also heirs of the western elf-realms of the westlands.

Do you think there is significance in the fact that this quote appears in the draft from The Peoples of Middle Earth, but was ommited (presumably deliberately) from the published LotR appendices?

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by radagastly

Originally posted by cellurdur:

I was actually hoping you could cite the specific source of this line you quoted in an earlier post:

Do you think there is significance in the fact that this quote appears in the draft from The Peoples of Middle Earth, but was ommited (presumably deliberately) from the published LotR appendices?

Yes I do think it is significant that it did not make the Appendix, but no reason is ever given for it. In the Appendix Arwen's role as Queen of Elves is brought up. In other letters it is made apparent that Aragorn would rule over an empire with many kings such as Thorin and Bard pledging allegiance and being placed under his protection. He would then fight many wars in the East all the way to the sea of Rhun. To think the elvish communities in a similar did something similar to Thorin and Bard does not seem a stretch given Arwen's title as the Queen of Elves.

The quotes can be found on Page 196 and 211, The Heirs of Elendil, The Peoples of Middle Earth,

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

But he is saying that Galadriel is NOT correct in her belief that she could master the ring and so is especially Elrond it was only the deceit of the ring that makes them believe that they could do it.

That´s illogical, one time Tolkiens says that of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him and the next time he says that especially Elrond could master him? Don´t think so. I read it as if especially Elrond conceived of himself as capable of wielding the ring and supplanting the dark lord. You can read it both ways but I don´t think Elrond had the greatest innate power, Galadriel is described an an equal of Feanor (in later writing I know, but nevertheless that was Tolkiens take on her) who was the mightiest of the elves and I think no one would argue that he could match Feanor. Only because Elrond was decended from melian doesn´t mean that he was more powerful than the other elves. (In that logic same would apply for Arwen and the twins)Galadriel for sure and Glorfindel (only after his re-birth)are innately more powerful.

Tolkien is saying this, that out of the others(the good guys) only Gandalf can be expected to master it.
Galadriel thought she could master it too.
If Galadriel could master it then so could the others.
Especially Elrond.
But the ring deludes people.
So Galadriel was probably deluded.

Tolkien has never used greatest to mean the most powerful. In every sense when he wants to talk about sheer innate power or superior ability he uses mightiest.

Earendil is the mightiest mariner.
Maglor is the second mightiest singer.
Feanor is the mightiest of the Noldor.
Beleg is the mightiest woodsman.
Ar-pharazon is the mightiest Numenor King
Hurin is the mightiest warrior of men.
Hurin is the mightest of men.

Greatest outright does not mean most powerful. Maeglin is the second greatest Elf in Gondolin, but Ecthelion and Glorfindel are mightier.

That aside Tolkien likes to explain his power.Elrond is a descendant of Melian and this means a lot according to Tolkien.

Elrond has the mightiest elven ring, Elrond is the most likely to be able to overthrow Sauron outside the Istari.

"Elrond wore a mantle of grey and had a star upon his forehead, and a silver harp was in his hand, and upon his finger was a ring of gold with a great blue stone, Vilya, mightiest of the Three."

I gave him the name Elrond casually, but as this came from the mythology (Elros and Elrond the two sons of Eärendel) I made him half-elven. Only in The Lord was he identified with the son of Eärendel, and so the great-grandson of Lúthien and Beren, a great power and a Ringholder.

It's Elrond 's magic which defeats the 9 all gathered together.

It is Erond, who holds out against Sauron in Imladris.

Frodo asks:
"What about Rivendell and the Elves? Is Rivendell safe?"
Gandalf replies:
"Yes, at present, until all else is conquered."

He is the greatest healer in Middle Earth.

Only Cirdan has greater foresight than him and Cirdan has this as a reward from the Valar.
This is what is said about Cirdan's foresight.
This does not include the Istari(who came from Valinor), but must include even Elrond, Galadriel and Celeborn.

Notice it the fact that he has superior foresight to Elrond is especially highlighted.

When it comes to innate power all the quotes suggest that Elrond has the most power out of the non Maiar


We have been over this and I have shown how the High Kingship of the Noldor was only passed to males through a male line. Consequently it skipped Elrond, Fingolfin's heir through Turgon and went to Gil-galad the heir of Finarfin. By going to Gil-galad it skipped Galadriel and her daughter Celebrian.

With no one else left on Middle Earth, Arwen could claim the lands through both Finarfin and Fingolfin.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I am not sure this is the case. I think you underestimate the just how highly Luthien is held by the elves. She is the greatest, most powerful, most beautiful and noblest of all the elves. Just, because Elrond did not push a claim of kingship does not mean that they would not have accepted it. With their numbers dwindling and the desire to be under the protection of the Crown of Gondor there is no reason why the realms would not accept Arwen as their queen.

Firstly, once again, Luthien is not Arwen. No one praises Maedhros for Feanor's Silmarils. Why should anyone praise Arwen for Luthien's achievements? Also, I do not believe there is such a desire to get under the protection of the Crown of Gondor. Firstly, if anything, they now need less protection because Sauron's forces are destroyed; while there are still scattered orcs and the likes of them here and there, there is no organized war against them. Moreover, to my memory, the Elves have never in history been under the rule of Men, and I do not see a reason for them to crave it now. Legolas' Ithilien colony is an interesting case, but even here the motives are similar to Gimli's settlement of the Glittering Caves - it's not about whose rule/protection you are under, it's about the beauty of the place.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

The more likely and logical answer I have already addressed. Arwen being the heir of Celeborn/Galadriel, the heir of Elrond and already a great Queen, would be able to grant protection to the elvish realms. In return they would recognise her sovereignty. Similar to the relation that Aragorn had with the King of Dale.

Firstly, Arwen would not be able to grant anything to anyone. She would be able to ask Aragorn to grant protection and whatnot.

But also, what you describe is not similar to Aragorn and the King of Dale. Aragorn didn't claim anything to do with Dale other than to be friends, and all the while I'm sure he would have sent an army there should the need arise. Yes, the two Kings recognize each other's position, but neither claims that he has power over the other because of the help he is granting. That would sound more of a Sauronian argument for the Haradrim/Easterlings - I'll give you [xyz] and you recognize me as your ruler!

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I never argued that Arwen was greater than Galadriel, but that she was great in her own right and accomplished many great things. People too often dismiss the role she played.

Ah, seems like we're finally agreeing on something! I am not trying to prove that Arwen is a brainless duck. I think too that she has a power of her own. But I think that she is still lesser than Galadriel.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Well you would be wrong, because this was impossible according to Tolkien. That apart Sauron was a greater power than Galadriel and even if she had the One Ring she would be unable to overcome him.

No one not even the Valar could read the mind of another 'equal being'. .....One can deduce much of their thought, from general comparisons leading to conclusions concerning the nature and tendencies of mind and thought..

Galadriel had a special gift of being able to read people from their previous actions and tendencies. She could not invade Sauron's mind in the way you think. As the article says this is impossible for even the greatest of the Valar to do to the weakest of the Hobbits. Let alone Galadriel trying to do it to a greater power than hers.

I have no clue where you quote from, but in FOTR Galadriel clearly says: "I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves." If this does not say that Galadriel knows Sauron's intentions and at least partially reads his thoughts, then the books aree written backwards. She then adds "And he gropes ever to see me and my thought. But still the door is closed!" There is clearly some mental battle going on here between Galadriel and Sauron, and so far Sauron is NOT winning.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

As for Thranduil, he was Sindar by origin and under Thingol. Why wouldn't he accept the heir of Thingol if she proved herself a capable leader? He had a far closer relationship with men than most other elves at the time.

I'm assuming you mean that Thranduil would accept Arwen if she proved herself capable. There are two problems with this argument. First and foremost, Arwen never proves herself a capable leader. She only rules second-hand from father and husband. Secondly, Thingol might acknowledge her as a great Elf, as the Queen of Gondor, but not as his own Queen. Why would he? Even if she's great and wonderful and all, there's no reason for him to all of a sudden give her his authority over his people. Moreover, as you yourself said, Elves do not just name a succesor, they choose one. The Elves of Mirkwood had little to nothing to do with Arwen for the past ever. So why would they just wake up one day and decide to follow her?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Many would be all of Lindon and Eregion since she was the only heir of the Noldor left. Have you actually seen the size of the Lindon etc? Even if it was sparsely populated it was land she had rights to.

Only as much, if not less, as Aragorn had rights to Arnor when he was the Chieftain of the Dunedain. Oh, it was certainly in his bloodline, but it was like a promise without a written contract. It's empty, other than of history/hope/etc. He has a certain power inherited by the same bloodline, but that is unrelated to his titles.

PS: I am typing as I'm reading along, and I just read that Legate says almost the exact same thing in almost the same words!

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Greatest outright does not mean most powerful. Maeglin is the second greatest Elf in Gondolin, but Ecthelion and Glorfindel are mightier.

But then again - powerful does not only have to refer to political power. And neither does greatness.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

With no one else left on Middle Earth, Arwen could claim the lands through both Finarfin and Fingolfin.

She could, but a) she wouldn't because Elves don't do things that way, they don't just claim lands that they have a vague and distant claim to, especially if it is not the people that chooses them; b) she might as well claim the Helcaraxe too with as much success; c) certainly there were people left in ME other than her, Thranduil now being the most prominent.

I would argue my points further, but I would just be repeating what has been said multiple times by other posters.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Firstly, once again, Luthien is not Arwen. No one praises Maedhros for Feanor's Silmarils. Why should anyone praise Arwen for Luthien's achievements? Also, I do not believe there is such a desire to get under the protection of the Crown of Gondor. Firstly, if anything, they now need less protection because Sauron's forces are destroyed; while there are still scattered orcs and the likes of them here and there, there is no organized war against them. Moreover, to my memory, the Elves have never in history been under the rule of Men, and I do not see a reason for them to crave it now. Legolas' Ithilien colony is an interesting case, but even here the motives are similar to Gimli's settlement of the Glittering Caves - it's not about whose rule/protection you are under, it's about the beauty of the place.

Arwen is not Luthien, but she reminds the elves of her great ancestress. It's not that they are praising Arwen for Luthien's deeds, but in honour of Luthien acknowledging Arwen's right to rule.

You may not believe there was a desire to get under the protection of the crown, but there clearly was. Fangorn, Dale, The Lonely Mountain, the Shire and the Druadon forest are several such areas, which were under Aragorn's protection Why wouldn't the elves?

You are wrong about there being no organised war.

Aragorn was forced to fight in many wars.

For though Sauron had passed, the hatreds and the evil he bred had not died, and the King of the West had many enemies to subdue before the White Tree could grow in peace. And where the King Elessar went with war King Eomer went with him; and beyond the sea of Rhun and on the far fields of the South...

There was plainly lots of fighting left to do and near often close to Mirkwood.

Again there is no answer to Tolkien's words that Aragorn soon had an empire.

There is nothing said about his title as King of the West.

You have yet to give a valid reason why the elves alone would not be under his protection when their numbers were dwindling and there were still many foes to subdue?

Why is Arwen Queen of Elves then?

That apart there have been many men that have ruled over elves. Tuor commanded the exiles of Gondolin, whilst Dior was accepted the Half-elven king of Doriath.

Firstly, Arwen would not be able to grant anything to anyone. She would be able to ask Aragorn to grant protection and whatnot.

Of course she would she was the Queen of Gondor and other realms.

But also, what you describe is not similar to Aragorn and the King of Dale. Aragorn didn't claim anything to do with Dale other than to be friends, and all the while I'm sure he would have sent an army there should the need arise. Yes, the two Kings recognize each other's position, but neither claims that he has power over the other because of the help he is granting. That would sound more of a Sauronian argument for the Haradrim/Easterlings - I'll give you [xyz] and you recognize me as your ruler!

No the King of Dale himself recognises Aragorn's overlordship and willingly submits to his empire. Why would he not want to be part of Aragorn's empire? Aragorn's empire would be similar to the Roman empire of latter days. Most free people of the West, who were not friends of Sauron would want to be part of it.

Aragorn is King of the West. Arwen is Queen of Elves and Men.

Bard and Thorin are both said to be under the crown.

Ah, seems like we're finally agreeing on something! I am not trying to prove that Arwen is a brainless duck. I think too that she has a power of her own. But I think that she is still lesser than Galadriel.

I have never argued that Arwen was greater than Galadriel. I pointed out she was more beautiful and less flawed. I never argued she was greater or more powerful. I simply defended Arwen and pointed out that she was powerful and great in her own right.

I have no clue where you quote from, but in FOTR Galadriel clearly says: "I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves." If this does not say that Galadriel knows Sauron's intentions and at least partially reads his thoughts, then the books aree written backwards. She then adds "And he gropes ever to see me and my thought. But still the door is closed!" There is clearly some mental battle going on here between Galadriel and Sauron, and so far Sauron is NOT winning.

Yes, but not in the way you think. Sauron was trying to daunt and control Galadriel, but reading another persons mind was something impossible. The quotes come from Morgoth's ring. It just could not be done even by the Valar.

If you flick through the books you will see how Faramir and Denethor can read the hearts of men too.

About Faramir

He (Faramir) read the hearts of men as shrewd as his father.

I'm assuming you mean that Thranduil would accept Arwen if she proved herself capable. There are two problems with this argument. First and foremost, Arwen never proves herself a capable leader. She only rules second-hand from father and husband. Secondly, Thingol might acknowledge her as a great Elf, as the Queen of Gondor, but not as his own Queen. Why would he? Even if she's great and wonderful and all, there's no reason for him to all of a sudden give her his authority over his people. Moreover, as you yourself said, Elves do not just name a succesor, they choose one. The Elves of Mirkwood had little to nothing to do with Arwen for the past ever. So why would they just wake up one day and decide to follow her?

You mean like Melian played no role in ruling Doriath? Arwen was very great and queenly.

Elrond himself said

She (Arwen) is too far above you.

Gilraen had previously said this.

Your aim is high even for the descendant of many kings. For this lady is the noblest and fairest than now walks the earth.


Why is it strange that such a woman would be Queen of the remaining elves? Especially as we are told that fact?

Only as much, if not less, as Aragorn had rights to Arnor when he was the Chieftain of the Dunedain. Oh, it was certainly in his bloodline, but it was like a promise without a written contract. It's empty, other than of history/hope/etc. He has a certain power inherited by the same bloodline, but that is unrelated to his titles.

PS: I am typing as I'm reading along, and I just read that Legate says almost the exact same thing in almost the same words!

The Dunedaid did not have the money, the power or the opportunity to restore their kingdom. When Sauron was defeated and they had peace they were once again able to restore their previous lands. If the lands of Lindon and Eregion were being abandoned by the elves, who had rights to them? They come down to Aragorn and Arwen and this is why he was King of the West and not just Arnor and Gondor or even the Reunited Kingdom.

But then again - powerful does not only have to refer to political power. And neither does greatness.

I never said it did, but just that greatness did not mean power. Only when Tolkien used the word mighty did he mean power.

She could, but a) she wouldn't because Elves don't do things that way, they don't just claim lands that they have a vague and distant claim to, especially if it is not the people that chooses them; b) she might as well claim the Helcaraxe too with as much success; c) certainly there were people left in ME other than her, Thranduil now being the most prominent.

Arwen and even Aragorn do not just have a vague claim to these lands. By right they have inherited these lands through many branches of the family and being great and noble rulers, the people would want them as rulers.

It is nonsense to use the Helcaraxe as an example since it was never an Elvish Kingdom.

What do you think happened when Elendil and his sons arrived in ME? What did the Prince of Dol Amroth do? Seeing a great and fair ruler like Elendil he humbly accepted him as his overlord. The Numenoreans of Gondor and Arnor accepted that Elendil as the heir of Elros had a right to the kingship and submitted to his power.

It would seem a similar thing happened when Arwen was appointed Queen as with Elendil's return. Or do you think it is strange that the Faithful in ME readily accepted Elendil as their king and wanted to be part of his empire?

[elbenprincess]

It's Elrond 's magic which defeats the 9 all gathered together.

It is Erond, who holds out against Sauron in Imladris.

When it comes to innate power all the quotes suggest that Elrond has the most power out of the non Maiar

It´s Galadriel who holds Saurons army out of Lorien and the Witch King feared her, sauron percived at once that she would be his chief obstacle and there is no proof that Elrond was the mightiest elf out of the non Maia, (more powerful even than Fingolfin and Feanor, or just third age?)that is very far fetched, as a equal of Feanor and the greatest of the elves of Valinor with Feanor and Galadriel being more older, having seen the the light of the trees and being tutored by Melian would make her innate more powerfl. And I think greatest to a degree means the most powerfl too, Sauron was Morgoths greatest servant and we know he was the most powerful.

Galadriels seems to have more effect in Lorien than Elrond in Rivendel, time flew differently

Yes, he defeates all 9 together, with the flood but IMHO, if Galadriel is able to bring down walls and send a mist (so she has power over elements too) she would be able to do the same.

IMHO you read this "especially Elrond" the wrong way, and even if you read it right, it was probably written before Galadriels might emerged in Tolkiens mind.

In every sense when he wants to talk about sheer innate power or superior ability he uses mightiest.

Elrond is never called the mightiest, so assuming that is only your opinion. Galadriel however is said to be the mightiest of the elves in the third age and because Elrond chose to be conted among the Eldar he is included in that quote.

Elrond has the mightiest elven ring, Elrond is the most likely to be able to overthrow Sauron outside the Istari.

Only if you read the passage like you do and true, he holds the mightiest of the three, but he wasn´t even the original bearer and it was coincidence that he got the ring, would Gil Galad haved survived, Elrond would´t have a ring.