* *A New Project ~~~ Revising the Ainulindale* *

[gondowe]

[I see. Similar to that in QS77, then, which sounds pretty reasonable.]

But QS77 does not end with §28? I mean my Ainulindale ends with §39 to §42.

[I think that I actually have no more comments on this chapter, and as far as I can see, all issues have been resolved. I will wait until we start on 'Of Valinor and the Two Trees' to address the additions to §§ 23-38, since they will be in that chapter now.]

Does it mean that you are not agreed with the insert of a previous chapter one (Of the beginnig of time/days)?

[Looking back, I do see that perhaps I never fully communicated to you what my concern was about the 'Yavanna as a tree' thing. Essentially, my objection to the passage is only that since we have removed the implicit frame-story, as it were, of Pengolodh speaking to Aelfwine, we must remove also the asides made by Pengolodh, and the references he makes to his own experiences - either by deleting them or by integrating them into the more neutral, third-person narration.]

If it helps, that passage and others (the most from TBoLT) were inserted by me in the Valaquenta, that one in the description of Yavanna. In third-person.

Sorry but I don't know why not quote the sentences right

Greetings

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Gondowe

But QS77 does not end with §28? I mean my Ainulindale ends with §39 to §42.

You're right, I'd forgotten that QS77 moved the 'Gift of Men' material as well.

Does it mean that you are not agreed with the insert of a previous chapter one (Of the beginnig of time/days)?

Well, when I wrote that I had not yet considered the possibility (raised by Findegil in the 'outline' thread) of splitting 'Of the Beginning of Time' (or 'Days') apart from 'Of Valinor and the Two Trees'. But regardless of whether we do split those chapters, we should probably tackle both of them at the same time, and hold off on considering the changes to §§ 23-38 until then.

Sorry but I don't know why not quote the sentences right

Format the quotes like this:

[ QUOTE ]Sorry but I don't know why not quote the sentences right[ /QUOTE ]

. . . except remove the spaces between the before and after the brackets [ and ].

Originally Posted by Findegil

As it is now we skipt all the words of Pengolodh so I think we have to skip them as well from the headline

Since we have decided that we aren't creating the 'veritable' Ainulindale, I wonder whether the heading saying that it was made by Rumil should be omitted as well. But it's a small point, since even if we don't have the true Ainulindale of Rumil, we have something very much like it and clearly based on it.

[Arvegil145]

I found a passage that I don't recall was discussed before:

And Manwë and Ulmo and Aulë were as Kings; but
Varda was the Queen of the Valar, and the spouse of Manwë,
and her beauty was high and terrible and of great reverence.
Yavanna was her sister, and Yavanna espoused Aulë; but
Nienna dwells alone, even as does Ulmo. And these with
Melkor are the Seven Great Ones of the Kingdom of Arda.

In the later mythology, as far as I remember, Yavanna is not the sister of Varda.

Also, the Aratar are eight (or nine, if Melkor is included) - Oromë and Mandos are missing here.


One more thing - what about the passages from the Myths Transformed, that were proposed in an earlier post?

[Findegil]

Yavanna sister of Varda: If a fact is not mentioned it does not necessarily meant that is no longer true. Or have we overlooked a plain statement that gainsaid the two beign 'siblings'?

Eight (Nine) Aratar: Could you provide us with a quote for that? I can search myself, but since you seem to remember the fact, you may find it much easier.

The passages from Myths transformed were added in the part of text that is not in Ainulidale proper but in the additional talk of Pengolodh to Ælfwine. Since we in the end moved that material to the first chapter/chapters of the Quenta Simalrillion we stoped discussing them here. You could take them as still under consideration.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

The War of the Jewels: Quendi and Eldar - Note on the "Language of the Valar"

The element maxan, said to mean 'authority, authoritative decision', was also used in the form Máhan, one of the eight chiefs of the Valar, usually translated as Aratar.

Here it is explicit that there were eight of the Aratar.


Another quote taken from Morgoth's Ring: The Later Quenta Silmarillion: Phase II - Valaquenta. This is a commentary by Christopher Tolkien on the statement in the Valaquenta that there are "Seven Great Ones of the Realm of Arda":

At the end of the account of the Valar and Valier appears the name and conception of the Aratar, the High Ones of Arda, of whom there are eight after the removal of Melkor. This contrasts with the conception of 'the Seven Great Ones of the Realm of Arda' (p. 147, §10a), among whom Melkor is numbered, but not Oromë, nor Mandos.

Concerning Yavanna and Varda being siblings:

The statement in §5 that Yavanna is the sister of Varda does not appear in QS, but it was merely derived from that in QS §8, that Vána is 'the younger sister of Varda and Palúrien'. This goes back to Q (IV. 79, 167), but no further. Varda and Yavanna were still sisters in AAm (p. 49, §3), but the idea was abandoned in corrections to LQ 2.

This is also from Morgoth's Ring - it is found in The Later Quenta Silmarillion: Phase I; it is a comment by Christopher Tolkien found in the notes of the Chapter I: Of the Valar.

[Findegil]

Thanks for providing these info. It looks like we have to do a complete cross check between our text and notes providing the development from LQ1 (which seems to be the basic text of our editing) to the Valaquenta of [B]Sil77[b].

Respectfuly
Findegil

P.S.: It seems how ever we work on a text some erros are unavoidable. Once I did such a development of the text from LQ1 to LQ2 silently and confused the group so that I had to rework it with editing marks for each and every change. In this case it seems that it was forgotten completly with equaly unwanted result. (From a glimps into my draft of the first chapters of the Quenta Silamrillion it looks luckily as if I have done well there.)