The History of Galadriel and Celeborn

[elbenprincess]

They tend to be characterised not by not taking part in "action," but by being preposterously good at it.

If that is not Luthien, I don´t know who is Her action was putting Morgoth to sleep and in that she was very good.

but a character the author has become excessively fond of and consequently makes too omnicompetent and perfect

Well Tolkiens wife was an inspiration for Luthien, so I would say that Tolkien was very fond of her and very perfect Luthien was also.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

while Galadriel would be politican

No, that's what happens if she takes the Ring.

[gondowe]

Hello, I discovered this section yesterday, because I was only "absorbed" with the new Silmarillion section, but this thread is for me related, and i want to contribute to it.
As the New Silmarillion posters know i have constructed A Complete Silmarillion in Spanish, in my way. And of course the history of Galadriel and Celeborn was "reconstructed". As Findegil I also am a combiner but in other way. In general I am agreed with Galin (with some differences) but for example:

Originally posted by Galin
With a notable cough I 'interpret' Galadriel's line in The Lord of the Rings ['... and I have dwelt with him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat.'] to mean she passed over mountains into Beleriand to ultimately meet Celeborn, a Sindarin Elf and kinsman of Thingol, in Doriath.
....

After that is seems we have Galadriel in Thingol's realm, learning from Melian and having a life with Celeborn there until the Sack of Doriath, based on the brief line [Unfinished Tales] that Celeborn 'escaped the sack of Doriath'.

Well, due to the versions of TLOTR and TRGEO (that I think must be a law, because they were published by their author), I tried to make solution thinking and editorially writing in my recontructed account of the Second Age, that ere the fall of Nargothrond, in a non told year, Galadriel passed over the Mountains and "discovered" Lindorinand but she returned to Doriath again.
Then after the sack of Doriath we could think, but only think, that Elwing and the people of Doriath perhaps were guided by Galadriel and Celeborn.

Greetings

[Galin]

Originally Posted by gondowe

Well, due to the versions of TLOTR and TRGEO (that I think must be a law, because they were published by their author),...

I very much agree!

... I tried to make solution thinking and editorially writing in my recontructed account of the Second Age, that ere the fall of Nargothrond, in a non told year, Galadriel passed over the Mountains and "discovered" Lindorinand but she returned to Doriath again.

That certainly works. I stayed away from a reconciliation of having two trips only because I don't think that was ever Tolkien's intent coupled with (my opinion) that this seems a greater step to take with respect to reconstruction -- not that you are saying it was Tolkien's intent of course; I realize that.

I think the first trip into Eriador and beyond (which ended up with Galadriel meeting Celeborn in Lindorinand) was abandoned by JRRT, and that he possibly didn't remember the implication of Galadriel's statement, or maybe he didn't think it was explicit enough to be problematic enough for revision.

Admittedly I don't think Tolkien ever meant (that Galadriel meant) the Ered Wethrin with her statement in The Lord of the Rings, but it seemed to me to be a lesser sort of interpretation than retaining her trip to Lindorinand here. I assume she did cross the Ered Wethrin at some point to get to Doriath, although I agree it's a bit of an odd way to put things, given that if that were her meaning, it was certainly before the 'fall' of Nargothrond!

Part of my 'cough' above

That said, as I write this post and think about it more, we know that when Tolkien wrote this line in The Lord of the Rings, according to Christopher Tolkien anyway, his father probably did 'mean' that Galadriel passed over Eredluin (and the Misty Mountains perhaps) to arrive in Lindorinand (in this earlier conception to meet Celeborn the Nandorin Elf)...

... so in a sense, your scenario preserves part of the actual early idea behind this statement, with one adjustment being that Celeborn was not in Lindorinand already however.


I shall think more on this point then, at least.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, Galadriel's statement in FR is somewhat vague in its first part, at least with regard to the declaration that Celeborn "has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn." West could mean pretty much anything from Beleriand to Eriador to Lorinand. (but not in this context, I think, Valinor).

The problem of course arises with the "I" as opposed to "we;" and the proposition "for" in "I have dwelt with him years uncounted, for ere the fall of Nargothrond I passed over the mountains, and together" etc. Pretty hard to get around that- Galadriel met Celeborn *after* she crossed the mountains (whether Ered Luin or Hithaeglir doesn't really matter)- i.e. Celeborn could not have been a Sinda (unless one wants to fan-fic up a tale in which he independently headed out from Doriath on his own). No, Celeborn was conceived as a native Avar/Nando, and the sentence just escaped later revision.

It is in fact a 'ghost' sentence, like Gimli's unused axe; it's not something to be reconciled or papered over, it's just an artifact of a work of imaginative fiction. It's not like there's an underlying reality, you know.

[Galin]

Then how about Ered Wethrin WCH

The problem there is, Nargothrond hadn't even been begun yet when Galadriel crossed these mountains, much less fallen... but I wonder if the fall of Gondolin and Nargothrond might simply be used as a historic marker, so to speak... somewhat like saying 'before the Fall of Rome' generally equals 'a long time ago'...

... or ahem, something.

It is in fact a 'ghost' sentence, like Gimli's unused axe; it's not something to be reconciled or papered over, it's just an artifact of a work of imaginative fiction. It's not like there's an underlying reality, you know.

I do not understand this last sentence

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, I'd say that "days of dawn" is a a better approx of "long, long time ago"

[Galin]

Well no doubt there are better ways to say this... but here of course I am trying to reinterpret a statement so that it might allow both it and RGEO to fit (well enough if not perfectly) into the history of Celeborn and Galadriel, and so I can't change the wording.

So so far I'm sticking with the Ered Wethrin

I think it's a bit odd to have Galadriel say this if she means she went to Lindorinand without Celeborn and returned... I mean why note this crossing if being together is so much a part of the meaning?

In other words, as a detail of history it works well enough, but not so much with respect to the context of Galadriel's statement. My scenario is a bit off too due to the timing of the 'fall', as I say, but at least it puts Galadriel with Celeborn together after this crossing, and doesn't seem to step on what I feel is a main thrust of the statement.

[Ivriniel]

It's a very complex history, and the materials about what the prof said at his death bed were definitely for a headache.

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpos...2&postcount=49

Some of the] materials about Galadriel were amongst the last JRRT worked on. Chris also notes in UT that his dad wrote some stuff about Galadriel a month before his death. Seems to me that meant that Tolkien had some new thoughts about Galadriel that were missed by older materials. For example, the stuff he wrote a month before his death was the materials quarantining her from responsibility of Feanor's lead on the kinslaying, her and Celeborn (Teleporno) fighting valiantly with the Teleri (though Celeborn's lineage, elsewhere places him as a descendent of Elmo, bro to Elwe and Olwe, and this lineage links Dior, by marriage, to Elmo's brood, and so to Elwing, meaning Celebrian and Celeborn were related to Aragron (Elros) and also Arwen (Elrond). So, Gala and Celeb snatch a Telerin boat, and wander off to Middle Earth, roped in to the Ban thing, by implication, but arrived ahead of her "...unfriends forever..." Feanor (I had to say, I always chuckle when I re-read that stuff about Galadriel snubbing relative Feanor, and so the two were "unfriends forever".

Lineage matters shunted sideways, Chris notes that Galadriel's stuff is amongst the latest emendations to other materials and in fact, post dates LotR. There is the implication that Amroth is Galadriel's son (as you noted), for example, which post dates LotR.

... like [again in my opinion] Galadriel as co-founder and co-ruler of Eregion. And thus [if so] there was/would be no need for her to be ousted from power at this point.

On this point about Galariel's and Celeborn's migration out of Beleriand, end of FA:

Galadriel and Celeborn had in their company a Noldorin craftsman named Celebrimbor. [He is here said to have been one of the survivors of Gondolin, who had been among Turgon's greatest artificers; but the text is emended to the later story that made him a descendant of Feanor, as is mentioned in Appendix B to The Lord of the Rings …and more fully detailed in the Silmarillion (pp. 176, 276" (p. 235, Unfinished Tales, 1980, Allen & Unwen , Hardback Ed)

That quote more goes to why version I of the Elessar, Enerdhil and all that don't square well with later emendations.

Chris notes that Galadriel and Celeborn were not mentioned in founding of Ost-In-Edhil but--the (late) essay on Galadriel and Celeborn states

Although it is not stated that Galadriel was present when Annatar arrived (1200), "He perceived at once that Galadriel would be his chief adversary and obstacle, and he endeavoured therefore to placate her, bearing her score with outward patience and courtesy" (p. 237) and Sauron "…worked in secret, unknown to Galadriel and Celeborn and to seize power in Eregion" (p. 237) "So great became his hold on the Mirdain that at length he persuaded them to revolt against Galadriel and Celeborn and to seize power in Eregion" (p. 237) between 1350 and 1400 "Galadriel thereupon left eregion and passed through Khazad-dum to Lorinand, taking with her Amroth and Celebrian" (p. 237)

This places Galadriel and Celebron in the fray and how the revolt against them was orchestrated.

Bad boi Annatar comes in and stirs the pot around 1200 then

But in the meantime the power of Galadriel and Celeborn had grown, and Galadriel, assisted in this by her friendship with the Dwarves of Moria, had come into contact with the Nandorin realm of Lorinand on the other side of the Misty Mountains (p. 236)

So, the founding of Laurelindorenan and all that appears to have happened some time after 1200 and before 1695 SA (Because it was Gil Galad that gives her Mallorn seeds, gifted to him from Numenor [The seeds wouldn't grow in Lindon], this also implies a second-age-ish concept for the founding of Lorien, after Lorinand). I note that materials about Amroth and Nimrodel place Amroth as ruler of Lorien until -- much later -- (I have a headache ) around 3434, SA! Man--that's like really off tap Tolkien--we are talking a discrepancy of about 1000 years!!!!

Also, Christopher Tolkien thinks The Elessar was probably written at about the same time as Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn,

... but what came first, this chicken or this egg? And if The Elessar came first, how do we know the circumstances that were imagined behind Galadriel residing in Greenwood when Olorin visited? Christopher Tolkien states that possibly the reference to Galadriel living in Greenwood is related to the refrence in the first edition, in the tale of years of the Second Age, Appendix B:

[Galin]

For the fuller context of Ivriniel's last post, and my responses in context... see the following thread

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...172#post690172

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, by definition all Galadriel material is post-LR, since she wasn't invented until then.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Well, by definition all Galadriel material is post-LR, since she wasn't invented until then.

Tell us more, William, I'm really interested in your take.

Cheers

[William Cloud Hicklin]

There's not really much else to say; you've covered just about everything. It's a fact of (external) history that neither Galadriel nor Celeborn existed until Tolkien came to write the Lothlorien chapters in 1940, and it wasn't until a decade or so later that he tried to ret-con them into his legendarium. Galadriel was given something of a bit part in the revised QS and especially in the Grey Annals, while Celeborn remained in her shadow.

The sad fact of the matter is that Tolkien never got around to inventing much history for the Second Age in the Great Lands, with the exception of his rather laconic coverage of the First War of the Rings.

----------------------

I can add this many worms to the can- while on the one hand Tolkien might be implying that Galadriel as well as Celeborn were present for the sack of Doriath, G's own statement would negate that: if she "passed over the mountains" before the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin, then she was necessarily gone before Doriath fell (the first (Dwarf) sack occurred the same year as Gondolin went down, and several years after Nargthrond)

[Galin]

"He [Celeborn] has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted [starting in Doriath]; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin [generally speaking, especially as some of the listeners are Hobbits: "a long long time ago"] I passed over the mountains [Ered Wethrin, then on to Doriath] and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat."