Túrin Afflicts the Afflicted

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

All this seems a strange coincidence, if that's what it is. Or, did Tolkien mean something by putting all that in Túrin's tale? Was it a statement that a strong body and fighting prowess ought to give way more often to gentle wisdom? That in Arda, it really is the "weak" who are strong?

Possibly, but Maedhros would disagree.

I want to write some more, but I don't have time. Very quickly: Turin is strong, passionate, and believes in the sword. Gwindor and Sador once too beleved in the sword. They were disillusioned. Brandir is a sightly different case; he was never particularly fond of the sword, and IIRC that had nothing to do with his injury. Turin thought that he was powerful enough to take on Morgoth's army. Sador and Gwindor (and Brandir too) knew better.

PS: Beleg also knew better, so it's not only the crippled. (THough Beleg did not have this illusion in the first place...)

[Inziladun]

I still find it interesting that Túrin is associated with so many physically weak characters, and does personal harm to each.
Was it somehow part of the fulfillment of Morgoth's curse, with his direction? Or can it really be mere coincidence?

[Nogrod]

Without claiming any expertise on Tolkien's life vs. his works, WW I comes to mind with that interesting point you make Inzil. I have never quite spotted that curious thing there!

I'm not a great fan of biographical interpretation of mostly anything but here I think it might be semi-appropriate... I mean it looks like a too much to be a coincidence, now that you point at it.

So those wounded in battles knew better than those who came in fresh / happened not being wounded? In the trenches of WW I that is, like where the Prof himself was? It doesn't take a psychology major to be able to think there could be a difference in attitude & view of things between someone who has been maimed in a battle and one with "hybris" (put here the specific hybris of Túrin).

Nicely spotted - and merits more thought...

[Nogrod]

Just a wild speculation then...

Every male who has been in the army or a sports team knows the "hero" / tough guy -character.

It is kind of Túrin character... the one who makes the difference, able and willing - and in some ways pathetic in it - but stronger and wilder than others who might know better.

I could see the Prof here looking at the physically stronger and mentally braver (or more blind) guys coming forth in the trenches - who would still be in the main more stupid, childish, and especially more ignorant of the bigger picture / the world outside themsleves.

It's the kind of a school bully being written as a hero, a thing he could have witnessed in the trenches and realised this possibility - well the reality of it...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

It's the kind of a school bully being written as a hero, a thing he could have witnessed in the trenches and realised this possibility - well the reality of it...

Túrin does come across as something of a bully, basically using his fighting prowess as a tool to pretty much take over Nargothrond and Brethil. Physically powerful, emotionally weak, lashing out at those who remind him of his own failures, such as Brandir.
I see an echo of that later in Boromir, though obviously without the connections with "disabled" individuals.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Turin thought that he was powerful enough to take on Morgoth's army. Sador and Gwindor (and Brandir too) knew better.

Hey hey let's not forget Túrin will in due course duel with Morgoth himself and slay him!

There's a plenty of other cripples though - Maedhros, Beren, and Frodo too. The cripples in Túrin's story are different in the sense that none of them got hurt doing something heroic (well, except Gwindor, but it's more complex than that).

I agree on Inzil's point about the weak actually being the strong, but I can also see it as part of Morgoth's curse. Túrin knew Labadal before Morgoth cursed Húrin's family - but the curse seems to play a part both in Gwindor's and in Brandir's case. They opposed Túrin's rasher decisions, but their disabilities made it easier for Túrin to get his way because their people were more inclined to follow him and they couldn't stop him.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Hey hey let's not forget Túrin will in due course duel with Morgoth himself and slay him!

When he gets that done, I'll finally cut him a bit of slack.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

but the curse seems to play a part both in Gwindor's and in Brandir's case. They opposed Túrin's rasher decisions, but their disabilities made it easier for Túrin to get his way because their people were more inclined to follow him and they couldn't stop him.

That's an interesting point. Túrin's physical strength and imposing will made him a natural leader, but his wisdom was sadly lacking. And wisdom and patience were precisely what Sador, Gwindor, and Brandir tried to impart to him.