Arcane Topic Warning: Part the Third

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

the bag of spare change that the Orcs threw at Thrór's companion: his beggar's fee, "a few coins of little worth". That insult would be quite lost if not both parties were familiar with the currency.

I don't think that's necessarily the case. If we assume, as I think we must, that the coinage of Middle-earth was like that of the Primary World up to the 20th century, coinage had intrinsic value, based on its composition: chiefly gold and silver, plus 'token' currency in copper, bronze, brass and sometimes iron. Note that Butterbur pays for Bill the Pony with "silver pennies," the standard circulating coin of the English middle ages (and 20 of them was considered a fair expense even for a prosperous innkeeper).

And much like Europe in the middle ages, coins we can assume spread far and wide beyond the land where they were minted, and quickly became a promiscuous mixture of origins. This didn't matter, since gold and silver were valued by weight anyway. So one didn't have to be "familiar with the currency" at all to tell that a 25-gram gold coin was of very substantial worth, or that a bag of small copper and brass pieces was of "little worth." Even today, it's apparent to most at a glance that a handful of faux-copper coins roughly the size of a US or European cent, Canadian penny or old German pfennig amounts to little, wherever they came from.

I see your point. I remember (back in the days when I collected "modern" coins my suprise when I first saw a British quarter farthing (note that is a quarter of a farthing i.e. 1/16th of a penny) and realized that, low as a farthing was value in turn of the century Britain, there were places where it was still too much money for day to day commerce and even smaller coins were needed (from what I understand, sub farthings (1/4, 1/3 and 1/2) were mostly for use in some of the colonies (malta in particualr, though the were legal tender in Britain itself).
Without any real evidence, I've always sort of assumed that Gondorian money was the currency of choice for inernational (inter tribal?) exchange. As the biggest "power" in ME (exculding Mordor itself, see later) it would probably be the weight and fineness(purity of metal) standards of Gondor/Arnor that would be the "standard" for trade (much as most international trade in Bibilcal times was based on the Tyrian shekel ) Also since (in a lot of ways) Gondor was supposed to be like Rome, I've always sort of imagined they issued roman style coins, as opposed to medival style (in general the medival style of minting, from a plate of metal as opped to a "dump" (slug) resulted in coins that were bigger than the roman kinds, but a lot thinner. The roman style was preferred in a lot of places as the thickness made it harder to clip coins (shave a bit of metal off the sides so as to make a profit) Minas Tirith probably had the master mint, with smaller satellite mints in places like Dol Amroth (there was probably also one in Minas Ithil/Morgul, under the WK's authority that supplied coin to those in Mordor who needed paying (or if they never changed the dies, to flood the free people with debased coinage to weaken thier confidence.)

[Kuruharan]

We know (as quoted in this thread) that they did have contact with the Avari though.

This is true, but I'm not sure that contact would have been that substantial. I still hold to my statement that a grudge against the elves wouldn't have been a primary motivating factor in the eastern dwarves siding with Sauron.

It seems that there is an Easterling-Dwarf connection. And we know that there is a substantial Easterling-Orc connection. Is might be possible, then, for there to have been in Rhûn a variety of races in contact with one another, perhaps including the Avari as well. Not to say that this was likely a pleasant or altogether peaceful situation but at least one which may have been somewhat functional.

I think this is spot on, which is one reason why its a bit of a shame we know so little about Rhun. Perhaps (following my theory, of course ) the reason why some groups of Easterlings had such strong cultural dwarven overtones is because they were partners (or possibly more valued underlings) with one or the other of the eastern houses as opposed to Androg's people who seemed to have been on the exploited or oppressed side of the spectrum.

I don't think that's necessarily the case. If we assume, as I think we must, that the coinage of Middle-earth was like that of the Primary World up to the 20th century, coinage had intrinsic value, based on its composition: chiefly gold and silver, plus 'token' currency in copper, bronze, brass and sometimes iron.

A very good point, however I think skip spence's point regarding the use of dwarf runes still bears some weight. Yes, the orcs were living in Moria where they were surrounded by dwarf runes, but that doesn't imply they were able to read them by themselves any more than it would imply that if I was living in a ruined ancient Egyptian temple that I would be able to read hieroglyphics. There had to be some kind of familiarity there in order for Azog to be literate in dwarf letters.

Without any real evidence, I've always sort of assumed that Gondorian money was the currency of choice for inernational (inter tribal?) exchange. As the biggest "power" in ME (exculding Mordor itself, see later) it would probably be the weight and fineness(purity of metal) standards of Gondor/Arnor that would be the "standard" for trade (much as most international trade in Bibilcal times was based on the Tyrian shekel )

For the area around Gondor (including Rohan) that was probably true. However, I'm not sure that would hold true in northern Middle earth especially after Gondor started to decline. For all its pride and splendor, Gondor was always kind of insular and never really struck me as much of a nation of merchants.

there was probably also one in Minas Ithil/Morgul, under the WK's authority that supplied coin to those in Mordor who needed paying (or if they never changed the dies, to flood the free people with debased coinage to weaken thier confidence.)

*ponders the implications of economic warfare in Middle earth*

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It would be plausible to think that the Dwarves also minted coins, at least in places where they had gold like Moria and Erebor. After all, in Of Dwarves and Men we find that the Dwarves relied entirely on local Men for their foodstuffs, as well as the military advantage of allied horsemen, and that implies having a medium of exchange.

It wouldn't even be beyond belief that the Shire-hobbits minted coins, probably in imitation of those of the vanished Kings of Arnor, since we know that they had and worked silver. After all, there seems to have been only limited trade between North and South by Frodo's time, the North Road having fallen into disuse; Saruman's purchases of pipe-weed seem to have been novel and exceptional. In the absence of trade, how would Gondorian coin have made it in any quantity up to the backwater beyond the Baranduin? (Note also that Bilbo was able to spend freely his loot from Smaug's hoard, and I doubt he went down to the butcher expecting to pay with a slice off an engraved goblet-so I suspect that much of it was in coin form).

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

It would be plausible to think that the Dwarves also minted coins, at least in places where they had gold like Moria and Erebor. After all, in Of Dwarves and Men we find that the Dwarves relied entirely on local Men for their foodstuffs, as well as the military advantage of allied horsemen, and that implies having a medium of exchange.

It wouldn't even be beyond belief that the Shire-hobbits minted coins, probably in imitation of those of the vanished Kings of Arnor, since we know that they had and worked silver. After all, there seems to have been only limited trade between North and South by Frodo's time, the North Road having fallen into disuse; Saruman's purchases of pipe-weed seem to have been novel and exceptional. In the absence of trade, how would Gondorian coin have made it in any quantity up to the backwater beyond the Baranduin? (Note also that Bilbo was able to spend freely his loot from Smaug's hoard, and I doubt he went down to the butcher expecting to pay with a slice off an engraved goblet-so I suspect that much of it was in coin form).

Actually there is a sort of third option for the dwarves and the Rohirrim (and any other groups with vaugely germanic/viking habits. In a lot of the Viking world, coins were of short supply and laws about minting your own, often harsh. So what was often used were "money bracelets" these were long spiralled armlets of gold sliver or copper (usually in the shape of a coiled snake) of standard thickness with notches in them of set distance apart. To make a payment, you would count off x notches worth and cut them off. whent he bits got too small, they would be gathered, melted down and made into a new bracelet. It's sort of similar to the "money chains" you see in Colonial Spanish production (those hyper heavly chains of gold links that you see so much of whenever they dredge up the contents of a treasure ship. they were waht you made when you didn't have the autorization to mint coins. I do think there were probably Dwaven coins (if nothing else, there would have to be gold in a form flexible enough for Smaug and other dragons to make a cfortable bed in. But there would be other options.
And the Movie cerinly assumed the Hobbits minted coins, you can buy "shire pennies" (officlaly sactioned) on the collectable market (both mint and "hobbit circulated")

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Actually there is a sort of third option for the dwarves and the Rohirrim (and any other groups with vaugely germanic/viking habits. In a lot of the Viking world, coins were of short supply and laws about minting your own, often harsh. So what was often used were "money bracelets" these were long spiralled armlets of gold sliver or copper (usually in the shape of a coiled snake) of standard thickness with notches in them of set distance apart. To make a payment, you would count off x notches worth and cut them off. whent he bits got too small, they would be gathered, melted down and made into a new bracelet.

Another interesting possibility. I still think dwarves would mostly have used coins.

And the Movie cerinly assumed the Hobbits minted coins, you can buy "shire pennies" (officlaly sactioned) on the collectable market (both mint and "hobbit circulated")

That makes me wonder who would have minted Shire pennies. The Thane, perhaps, although the authority of that office always seemed very informal.

Would the town of Bree also minted silver pennies? Especially since Butterbur is specifically stated as having them.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

That makes me wonder who would have minted Shire pennies. The Thane, perhaps, although the authority of that office always seemed very informal.

Would the town of Bree also minted silver pennies? Especially since Butterbur is specifically stated as having them.

Why couldn't the Shire and Bree have used Arnorian coins? Even though that kingdom was defunct by Buttubur's time, as long as the coins themselves were of precious metals, that shouldn't have mattered.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Why couldn't the Shire and Bree have used Arnorian coins? Even though that kingdom was defunct by Buttubur's time, as long as the coins themselves were of precious metals, that shouldn't have mattered.

True, but since that kingdom had died out hundreds of years before, if there was no other reasonable(ish) supply of coins their value would have skyrocketed.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Why couldn't the Shire and Bree have used Arnorian coins? Even though that kingdom was defunct by Buttubur's time, as long as the coins themselves were of precious metals, that shouldn't have mattered.

They probaby DID use whatever Arnorian money was still around (plus the occasional influx from a found hoard). One of the things about a specie (precious metal) based econonmy is that coins tend to be accepted no matter how old they are, provided the purity and weigh is alright until they are melted down (up until the 1820's to 30's in the Southwest you could still pay for things in Spanish reales aka "peices of eight" and those eights were still just as likey to be "cobs" (the crude colnial version) as the somewhat more contemporary Pillar Dollars (the machine struck coins) But there would need to be some re-striking from time to time, afer so long a lot of the Arnorian coins in circulation would have worn down to a point their weight would no longer be acceptable at anything like face value.

[Formendacil]

And time is a factor here--it was a millennium from the fall of Arvedui until the War of the Ring. Although I'm sure old Arthedain coin would have been accepted, that would be like American pioneers accepting coin from Alfred the Great's time--sure, they'd accept it if it was good metal, but that's a looooong time to survive in bulk. To an extent, no doubt, the coin kept circulating, but even if it diminished slowly it WOULD diminish--and wear.

Although Tolkien says that the "only" elements of government in the Shire were the postal service and the Shirriffs, I think it might not be too far out of the way to posit the possibility that there was a mint there. For one thing, it's already been noted that the Hobbits worked with silver. For another, it is conceivable that this mint was already there in the early days of the Shire, under the authority of Arthedain and that responsibility for it was assumed by the Thains after the fall of Fornost.

On the other hand, although I think the Dúnedain = Romans equation is a good one, perhaps we should look to the Dwarves rather than Arnor as the chief source of coinage in Bilbo's era. After all, we know that the Dwarves worked with gold and silver and we also know that they had a long tradition (going back to the early Second Age at least) of developing symbiotic relationships like they had in Erebor with the Dalemen: that is, a relationship of Men who provided them with food and horsemen, etc. It is also very easy to picture the Dwarves, with their concern for just payment (cf. what they owed Laketown in their negotiations with Bard and the Elvenking), having a solid reputation for consistently pure coinage, which would be accepted wherever Dwarves were known.

What is more, Dwarves moving east and west along the Great Road are the only known source of outside commerce in the Shire--a far more plausible source for coin than a sporadic filtering up from Gondor (though this may have been more common before Tharbad was finally abandoned--one gets the sense there used to be somewhat more traffic up the Greenway before the Fell Winter).

[Rhun charioteer]

It seems to me that dwarves would be most likely to serve Sauron or Morgoth for the promises of wealth. The dwarves that fought for Sauron in the WotLA for example might have been promised gold, mines, Mithril, etc...

And the dwarves hardy and resilient nature makes them impossible or near impossible to break into submission-so Sauron and Morgoth would likely have failed at attempting that-instead they would have promised them things the dwarves' hearts longer after.

Or used the fact that some dwarves were suspicious if not hostile to the elves to direct them to their side.