Origins of the Great Goblin

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Rumil

Could be Inzil.

I've always thought of the orcs as a bit genetically unstable if you like, due to their dubious origins and variety of shapes and sizes.

For example cats look pretty much like cats, some bigger, some smaller, but all cat-like. But dogs can look very different - Chihuahua, Great Dane, Bulldog, Collie etc.

But as we all know, cats are rather Orkish in their surreptitiously maleficent proclivities.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

But as we all know, cats are rather Orkish in their surreptitiously maleficent proclivities.

Tolkien did think Siamese cats were fauna of Mordor.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Tolkien did think Siamese cats were fauna of Mordor.

One of the few points on which I would heartily disagree with the dear Professor. Dogs, on the other hand...

Anyway, I've posited that the Orcs were indeed not necessarily all of the same original stock. Maybe the uruks came from Elves or Men, with the "trackers" coming from the Drúedain, or something like that. Orcs did obviously possess different physical characteristics.

[Troelsfo]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Anyway, I've posited that the Orcs were indeed not necessarily all of the same original stock. Maybe the uruks came from Elves or Men, with the "trackers" coming from the Drúedain, or something like that. Orcs did obviously possess different physical characteristics.

I have more or less given up on the Orcs

The whole question of what the Orcs were, how they came to be etc. is so wrought with problems and huge inconsistencies that attempting to make sense of it inevitably creates some hybrid that is far from anything Tolkien ever imagined. Even within The Lord of the Rings he cannot settle on a single view, and we get passages that clearly reflect (even in the authorial voice) the older view that the Orcs were indeed demonic spawns created by Morgoth in mockery of the Elves, while other passages show the emergence of the new view, that the Orcs are a corruption of some pre-existing creatures.

What we know about the Drúedain was written quite late in Tolkien's life — even later than the various musing about the Orcs that we see in ‘Myths Transformed’ (Morgoth's Ring), and it is impossible to say how the hints there should be seen in connection with the statements elsewhere — all we can know is that any detailed guess, while possibly logically consistent (or as consistent as possible), almost inevitably will represent something Tolkien never imagined.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Troelsfo

Even within The Lord of the Rings he cannot settle on a single view, and we get passages that clearly reflect (even in the authorial voice) the older view that the Orcs were indeed demonic spawns created by Morgoth in mockery of the Elves, while other passages show the emergence of the new view, that the Orcs are a corruption of some pre-existing creatures.

Do any of the works say that the Orcs were "created", as opposed to "made"? They are not the same.
I think Tolkien's Catholicism would at least shed some light on this. Within that belief, evil is incapable of true creation: it is restricted to perversion or corruption of the raw materials at hand, though there would seem to be a great deal of room for creativity in that respect. I see no reason to think Morgoth would have been different. The Silmarillion says more than once that the Fire is with Ilúvatar, and that Fire (of creation) cannot thus be used by any other. If Morgoth were able to truly create his own incarnate creatures, would he not then be the equal of Eru?

[Troelsfo]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Do any of the works say that the Orcs were "created", as opposed to "made"? They are not the same.

Oh yes, it is quite clear in the prose writings on the mythology from The Book of Lost Tales until some during the writing of The Lord of the Rings that Melko > Morgoth creates the race of Orcs.

In ‘The Fall of Gondolin’ in The Book of Lost Tales , Tolkien wrote that the Orcs “were bred by Melko of the subterranean heats and slime. Their hearts were of granite and their bodies deformed;”[1] and in the last pre-LotR (mid-thirties) we learn that Morgoth “brought into being the race of the Orcs, and they grew and multiplied in the bowels of the earth. These Orcs Morgoth made in envy and mockery of the Elves, and they were made of stone, but their hearts of hatred.”[2]. The idea of making the Orcs in mockery of the Elves apparently entered into the mythology in writings associated with The Lost Road, specifically the second version of The Fall of Númenor (circa 1937-8), and it seems quite clear that this idea of the origin of the Orcs underlies not only Treebeard's comments, but also the jolly wee game of counting Orc-heads that Gimli and Legolas play during the Battle of the Hornburg (this game, and indeed the treatment of the Orcs throughout the whole of the Rohan chapters) is not ethically consistent with the later view of Orcs as corrupted Eruhíni that should be pitied and spared when possible).

1. The Book of Lost Tales 2 (HoMe 2), ch. III ‘The Fall of Gondolin’, p. 159
2. The Lost Road and Other Writings (HoMe 5), part 2, VI ‘Quenta Silmarillion’, ch. 5 §62, p.233

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Troelsfo

In ‘The Fall of Gondolin’ in The Book of Lost Tales , Tolkien wrote that the Orcs “were bred by Melko of the subterranean heats and slime. Their hearts were of granite and their bodies deformed;”[1] and in the last pre-LotR (mid-thirties) we learn that Morgoth “brought into being the race of the Orcs, and they grew and multiplied in the bowels of the earth. These Orcs Morgoth made in envy and mockery of the Elves, and they were made of stone, but their hearts of hatred.”

In Letters #144 written in 1938, Tolkien states:

Orcs...are nowhere clearly stated to be of any particular origin. But since they are servants of the Dark Power, and later of Sauron, neither of whom could, or would, produce living things, they must be 'corruptions'.

In Letters #153, regarding Treebeard's words:

Treebeard does not say that the Dark Lord 'created' Trolls and Orcs. He says he 'made' them in counterfeit of certain creatures pre-existing. There is, to me, a wide gulf between the two statements, so wide that Treebeard's statement could (in my world) have possibly been true. It is not true of the Orcs - who are fundamentally a race of 'rational incarnate' creatures, though horribly corrupted, if no more so than many Men to be met today.

Later in the same letter:

Suffering and experience (and possibly the Ring itself) gave Frodo more insight; and you will read in Ch. I of Book VI the words to Sam. 'The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make new real things on its own. I don't think it gave life to the Orcs, it only ruined them and twisted them.'

Corruption seems to be the overriding theme.

Originally Posted by Troelsfo

[2]. The idea of making the Orcs in mockery of the Elves apparently entered into the mythology in writings associated with The Lost Road, specifically the second version of The Fall of Númenor (circa 1937-8), and it seems quite clear that this idea of the origin of the Orcs underlies not only Treebeard's comments, but also the jolly wee game of counting Orc-heads that Gimli and Legolas play during the Battle of the Hornburg (this game, and indeed the treatment of the Orcs throughout the whole of the Rohan chapters) is not ethically consistent with the later view of Orcs as corrupted Eruhíni that should be pitied and spared when possible).

Even if Tolkien had indeed intended for Morgoth early on to be a creator (which I think is still debatable), it seems clear the idea was abandoned later, possibly, as I said, out of a desire on the part of the author to avoid elevating the world's Prime Evil to a status on par with the True Creator.

Also, consider the situation of Morgoth's peer, Aulë. He did 'create' on his own, or at least made the attempt with the Dwarves. But that act was futile as a measure of creation. The Dwarves had no true life or fea until it was provided by the One. Otherwise, as he said to Aulë, the 'creations' would have had no independent thought or being, mere 'breathing meat'.

As for the wholesale, remorseless slaughter of the Orcs, I think it can be attributed to the length of time the 'good guys' had been dealing with them, which had led to a view of them as uncurable, implacable enemies.

[Boo Radley]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

But as we all know, cats are rather Orkish in their surreptitiously maleficent proclivities.

"In ancient times, cats were worshiped as gods. They have never forgotten this."

Terry Pratchett