Origins of the Great Goblin

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Tolkien did think Siamese cats were fauna of Mordor.

One of the few points on which I would heartily disagree with the dear Professor. Dogs, on the other hand...

Anyway, I've posited that the Orcs were indeed not necessarily all of the same original stock. Maybe the uruks came from Elves or Men, with the "trackers" coming from the Drúedain, or something like that. Orcs did obviously possess different physical characteristics.

[Troelsfo]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Anyway, I've posited that the Orcs were indeed not necessarily all of the same original stock. Maybe the uruks came from Elves or Men, with the "trackers" coming from the Drúedain, or something like that. Orcs did obviously possess different physical characteristics.

I have more or less given up on the Orcs

The whole question of what the Orcs were, how they came to be etc. is so wrought with problems and huge inconsistencies that attempting to make sense of it inevitably creates some hybrid that is far from anything Tolkien ever imagined. Even within The Lord of the Rings he cannot settle on a single view, and we get passages that clearly reflect (even in the authorial voice) the older view that the Orcs were indeed demonic spawns created by Morgoth in mockery of the Elves, while other passages show the emergence of the new view, that the Orcs are a corruption of some pre-existing creatures.

What we know about the Drúedain was written quite late in Tolkien's life — even later than the various musing about the Orcs that we see in ‘Myths Transformed’ (Morgoth's Ring), and it is impossible to say how the hints there should be seen in connection with the statements elsewhere — all we can know is that any detailed guess, while possibly logically consistent (or as consistent as possible), almost inevitably will represent something Tolkien never imagined.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Troelsfo

Even within The Lord of the Rings he cannot settle on a single view, and we get passages that clearly reflect (even in the authorial voice) the older view that the Orcs were indeed demonic spawns created by Morgoth in mockery of the Elves, while other passages show the emergence of the new view, that the Orcs are a corruption of some pre-existing creatures.

Do any of the works say that the Orcs were "created", as opposed to "made"? They are not the same.
I think Tolkien's Catholicism would at least shed some light on this. Within that belief, evil is incapable of true creation: it is restricted to perversion or corruption of the raw materials at hand, though there would seem to be a great deal of room for creativity in that respect. I see no reason to think Morgoth would have been different. The Silmarillion says more than once that the Fire is with Ilúvatar, and that Fire (of creation) cannot thus be used by any other. If Morgoth were able to truly create his own incarnate creatures, would he not then be the equal of Eru?

[Troelsfo]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Do any of the works say that the Orcs were "created", as opposed to "made"? They are not the same.

Oh yes, it is quite clear in the prose writings on the mythology from The Book of Lost Tales until some during the writing of The Lord of the Rings that Melko > Morgoth creates the race of Orcs.

In ‘The Fall of Gondolin’ in The Book of Lost Tales , Tolkien wrote that the Orcs “were bred by Melko of the subterranean heats and slime. Their hearts were of granite and their bodies deformed;”[1] and in the last pre-LotR (mid-thirties) we learn that Morgoth “brought into being the race of the Orcs, and they grew and multiplied in the bowels of the earth. These Orcs Morgoth made in envy and mockery of the Elves, and they were made of stone, but their hearts of hatred.”[2]. The idea of making the Orcs in mockery of the Elves apparently entered into the mythology in writings associated with The Lost Road, specifically the second version of The Fall of Númenor (circa 1937-8), and it seems quite clear that this idea of the origin of the Orcs underlies not only Treebeard's comments, but also the jolly wee game of counting Orc-heads that Gimli and Legolas play during the Battle of the Hornburg (this game, and indeed the treatment of the Orcs throughout the whole of the Rohan chapters) is not ethically consistent with the later view of Orcs as corrupted Eruhíni that should be pitied and spared when possible).

1. The Book of Lost Tales 2 (HoMe 2), ch. III ‘The Fall of Gondolin’, p. 159
2. The Lost Road and Other Writings (HoMe 5), part 2, VI ‘Quenta Silmarillion’, ch. 5 §62, p.233

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Troelsfo

In ‘The Fall of Gondolin’ in The Book of Lost Tales , Tolkien wrote that the Orcs “were bred by Melko of the subterranean heats and slime. Their hearts were of granite and their bodies deformed;”[1] and in the last pre-LotR (mid-thirties) we learn that Morgoth “brought into being the race of the Orcs, and they grew and multiplied in the bowels of the earth. These Orcs Morgoth made in envy and mockery of the Elves, and they were made of stone, but their hearts of hatred.”

In Letters #144 written in 1938, Tolkien states:

Orcs...are nowhere clearly stated to be of any particular origin. But since they are servants of the Dark Power, and later of Sauron, neither of whom could, or would, produce living things, they must be 'corruptions'.

In Letters #153, regarding Treebeard's words:

Treebeard does not say that the Dark Lord 'created' Trolls and Orcs. He says he 'made' them in counterfeit of certain creatures pre-existing. There is, to me, a wide gulf between the two statements, so wide that Treebeard's statement could (in my world) have possibly been true. It is not true of the Orcs - who are fundamentally a race of 'rational incarnate' creatures, though horribly corrupted, if no more so than many Men to be met today.

Later in the same letter:

Suffering and experience (and possibly the Ring itself) gave Frodo more insight; and you will read in Ch. I of Book VI the words to Sam. 'The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make new real things on its own. I don't think it gave life to the Orcs, it only ruined them and twisted them.'

Corruption seems to be the overriding theme.

Originally Posted by Troelsfo

[2]. The idea of making the Orcs in mockery of the Elves apparently entered into the mythology in writings associated with The Lost Road, specifically the second version of The Fall of Númenor (circa 1937-8), and it seems quite clear that this idea of the origin of the Orcs underlies not only Treebeard's comments, but also the jolly wee game of counting Orc-heads that Gimli and Legolas play during the Battle of the Hornburg (this game, and indeed the treatment of the Orcs throughout the whole of the Rohan chapters) is not ethically consistent with the later view of Orcs as corrupted Eruhíni that should be pitied and spared when possible).

Even if Tolkien had indeed intended for Morgoth early on to be a creator (which I think is still debatable), it seems clear the idea was abandoned later, possibly, as I said, out of a desire on the part of the author to avoid elevating the world's Prime Evil to a status on par with the True Creator.

Also, consider the situation of Morgoth's peer, Aulë. He did 'create' on his own, or at least made the attempt with the Dwarves. But that act was futile as a measure of creation. The Dwarves had no true life or fea until it was provided by the One. Otherwise, as he said to Aulë, the 'creations' would have had no independent thought or being, mere 'breathing meat'.

As for the wholesale, remorseless slaughter of the Orcs, I think it can be attributed to the length of time the 'good guys' had been dealing with them, which had led to a view of them as uncurable, implacable enemies.

[Troelsfo]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

In Letters #144 written in 1938, Tolkien states:

Letter no. 144 is dated 25 April 1954 to Naomi Mitchison. It is thus later than the transition that occurred while Tolkien was writing The Lord of the Rings. I'd have to go back and check the four HoMe volumes on the history of The Lord of the Rings for the details, but I think this change was fairly late in the writing — after his (near?) break-down in '46 and, IIRC, after he had worked on The Notion Club Papers also.

[Troelsfo]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Even if Tolkien had indeed intended for Morgoth early on to be a creator (which I think is still debatable),

If you read the first five volumes of The History of Middle-earth, you will soon see that this is not really debatable: this is clearly Tolkien's intention. You have him use phrases stating that Morgoth “devised” the Orcs or “brought into being” their race. Christopher Tolkien is also explicit in relation to The Book of Lost Tales, saying that “There is no trace yet of the later view that ‘naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindalë before the Beginning’”. This later view enters into the mythology after Tolkien had finished The Lord of the Ring (Morgoth's Ring (HoMe 10), part 2 ‘The Annals of Aman’ §45 p. 74), and clearly in response to the development during the writing of LotR, which is also expressed in the letters from which you quoted.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

it seems clear the idea was abandoned later, possibly, as I said, out of a desire on the part of the author to avoid elevating the world's Prime Evil to a status on par with the True Creator.

Yes, as I said, Tolkien changed his ideas during the writing of The Lord of the Rings, and that work therefore contains passages that are written based on the old view. Treebeard's statement is an example of this — regardless of what Tolkien said later, when he had changed his mind, Treebeard was stating the correct lore as Tolkien saw it when he wrote it. I suppose that Tolkien would have edited these passages more heavily if they had been wholly inconsistent with the later ideas, but knowing how his ideas evolved it is quite clear that the Rohan chapters are informed by the earlier conception of the origins of the Orcs. After he had finished writing The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien had clearly changed his conception of the Orcs and now considered them corrupted Eruhíni, and he decided, no later than ca. 1951, that they were corrupted from Elves caught early on, and t. This view was, however, not entirely without problems either, and when he went back to the Silmarillion mythology about 1959 he was very concerned with these problems. how could the corruption be inheritable? Were the perhaps nothing but mindless automata? Or were they perhaps to be considered beasts without fëar? Etc. Etc. These considerations are documented in the ‘Myths Transformed’ section (part 4) of Morgoth's Ring, and show that Tolkien was aware that his chosen solution was not perfect either, and he was searching for a way out. He always seems to come back to the idea of the Orcs as corrupted Eruhíni (though not necessarily always Elves), but he is obviously not entirely happy with that choice either (particularly the question of their being irredeemable and their corruption being inheritable while they at the same time supposedly were free-willed and had fëar {roughly corresponding to the soul of Christian thinking}).

So, yes, Tolkien did abandon the idea that the Ainur > Valar could create a new race (though from pre-existing matter), but the idea was clearly present in the early history of the mythology and in the earlier parts of The Lord of the Rings.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Also, consider the situation of Morgoth's peer, Aulë. He did 'create' on his own, or at least made the attempt with the Dwarves. But that act was futile as a measure of creation. The Dwarves had no true life or fea until it was provided by the One. Otherwise, as he said to Aulë, the 'creations' would have had no independent thought or being, mere 'breathing meat'.

But the whole text describing the making of the Dwarves by Aulë’ is also quite late — after the publication of The Lord of the Rings, IIRC (there were some brief hints in earlier text that Aulë had made the Dwarves, but no details, and the simple statement that he had made them implies rather that there was no intervention by Eru).

Originally Posted by Inziladun

As for the wholesale, remorseless slaughter of the Orcs, I think it can be attributed to the length of time the 'good guys' had been dealing with them, which had led to a view of them as uncurable, implacable enemies.

Not according to the laws as described later, according to which the Orcs should always be spared if they surrendered:

But even before this wickedness of Morgoth was suspected the Wise in the Elder Days taught always that the Orcs were not ‘made’ by Melkor, and therefore were not in their origin evil. They might have become irredeemable (at least by Elves and Men), but they remained within the Law. That is, that though of necessity, being the fingers of the hand of Morgoth, they must be fought with the utmost severity, they must not be dealt with in their own terms of cruelty and treachery. Captives must not be tormented, not even to discover information for the defence of the homes of Elves and Men. If any Orcs surrendered and asked for mercy, they must be granted it, even at a cost.

(Morgoth's Ring (HoMe 10), part 5 ‘Myths Transformed’, text X, p. 419)

Clearly many of the Orcs before the Hornburg and would have surrendered if they could: they were fleeing into the wood of huorns). Thus, IF we accept the Orcs as corrupted Eruhíni, creatures with fëar, the whole way of dealing with the Orcs before Helm's Deep becomes inconsistent with the ethics described in the above passage, but also with the ethics later expounded by Faramir

War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend: the city of the Men of Númenor; and I would have her loved for her memory, her ancientry, her beauty, and her present wisdom. Not feared, save as men may fear the dignity of a man, old and wise.

Tolkien's Catholicism is not particularly obvious in the earliest parts of his legendarium — particularly in The Book of Lost Tales the basis is not particularly Catholic (beyond The Music of the Ainur with its monotheistic omnipotent and omniscient Creator). Tolkien himself wrote that The Lord of the Rings only became consciously Catholic in the revision, and this, in my considered opinion, marks the point when the whole mythology became consciously Catholic. Before the writing of LotR there is no hint of Tolkien being particularly concerned about staying consistent with his faith (the ability of the Ainur > Valar to actually create sapient creatures is a clear example), but after LotR he is clearly very conscientious about this; a factor that contributed to the whole Silmarillion project bogging down in endless niggling.

[Inziladun]

We may endlessly quibble over opposing ideas from Tolkien between early and later writings. It is enough for me that the most recent conceptions of Orcish origins considered them as 'counterfeits'. As that is in line with my own thoughts of Arda's cosmology, I'll stick to it.