Origins of the Great Goblin - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Galin · 05-09-2013, 07:31 AM

I also think the old idea was in place when Tolkien wrote the chapter Treebeard [Orcs were made in mockery of Elves, but made by Morgoth out of stone and 'hatred' rather, not from Elves].

I can't date [precisely] when Tolkien penned Frodo's comments however [from The Land of Shadow IIRC], which seem to represent the major shift in thinking -- but when Tolkien returned to The Annals of Aman in the early 1950s, as first written the old concept was still in place. Then, and still in this phase of writing, comes the darker tale told in Eressea noted by Pengolodh [Orcs from Elves], but The Lord of the Rings -- the main story -- had already been written by this time.

As Troelsfo noted. Hello!

Tolkien's latest texts, after going over a number of variations when Orcs from Elves didn't seem to work well enough for him [although he still considered this], are about Orcs created from Men, with an adjusted chronology. This is text X, Morgoth's Ring. Christopher Tolkien will then mention two later notes which might only possibly raise the question as to whether or not Tolkien was once again changing his mind and moving away from Orcs created from Men -- these two later notes do not actually deny the main conception described in Text X however -- one note, for example, concerns only the point that JRRT spelled the word orks instead of orcs; and this may mean nothing more than a change in spelling rather than reflect another change in conception.

And in any case, an equally late note [to The Druedain, Unfinished Tales] once again has Elves stating that Morgoth made Orcs from various kinds of Men.

Well Troelsfo noted most of this anyway, but yes, so far I would agree that the old concept was in place during the writing of The Lord of the Rings, with Frodo's comments seemingly pointing to a change of mind at one stage -- possibly a change of mind again for the Annals -- or maybe Tolkien simply first 'updated' what was already there, without really giving too much thought...

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05-09-2013, 07:31 AM	#24
Galin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,036	I also think the old idea was in place when Tolkien wrote the chapter Treebeard [Orcs were made in mockery of Elves, but made by Morgoth out of stone and 'hatred' rather, not from Elves]. I can't date [precisely] when Tolkien penned Frodo's comments however [from The Land of Shadow IIRC], which seem to represent the major shift in thinking -- but when Tolkien returned to The Annals of Aman in the early 1950s, as first written the old concept was still in place. Then, and still in this phase of writing, comes the darker tale told in Eressea noted by Pengolodh [Orcs from Elves], but The Lord of the Rings -- the main story -- had already been written by this time. As Troelsfo noted. Hello! Tolkien's latest texts, after going over a number of variations when Orcs from Elves didn't seem to work well enough for him [although he still considered this], are about Orcs created from Men, with an adjusted chronology. This is text X, Morgoth's Ring. Christopher Tolkien will then mention two later notes which might only possibly raise the question as to whether or not Tolkien was once again changing his mind and moving away from Orcs created from Men -- these two later notes do not actually deny the main conception described in Text X however -- one note, for example, concerns only the point that JRRT spelled the word orks instead of orcs; and this may mean nothing more than a change in spelling rather than reflect another change in conception. And in any case, an equally late note [to The Druedain, Unfinished Tales] once again has Elves stating that Morgoth made Orcs from various kinds of Men. Well Troelsfo noted most of this anyway, but yes, so far I would agree that the old concept was in place during the writing of The Lord of the Rings, with Frodo's comments seemingly pointing to a change of mind at one stage -- possibly a change of mind again for the Annals -- or maybe Tolkien simply first 'updated' what was already there, without really giving too much thought... ... to updating