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Old 08-06-2013, 06:27 AM   #1
Galin
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Originally Posted by Alfirin View Post
I'm almost tempted to see Tolkein's Catholicism peeking through here. The view that death is the supreme gift and that being granted immortality in this flawed and marred world would be a curse, since it would keep one from the better world beyond.
Hmm, but yet the Elves can and will ultimately die with the End of the World.

The Quendi are not denied death [not that you said otherwise], but given a very different kind of life compared to 'brief' mortals.
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Old 08-06-2013, 09:50 AM   #2
Belegorn Calenmir
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Back to the reply that Arwen, Elrohir and Elladan would be mortal because of their mortal blood infused with Elvish blood, the children of Elrond were given a choice, it seems. When Elrond confronted Aragorn in the books about his interest in Arwen, after he told Aragorn that he would not be worthy enough to win Arwen unless he was the King of the North and South Kingdoms reunited, Aragorn, using a bit of foresight, warned Elrond that a day was coming soon when his children (specifically Arwen) would have to make their choice as to which kindred they would belong to, to remain in Middle-earth among Men or to go into the West with the Elves.
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Old 08-06-2013, 11:13 AM   #3
Mithalwen
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I agree with Galin. The valar felt the Gift of men from Eru could not be withheld to those entitled. It isn't simply a matter of death since as has been pointed out that Elves are only immortal in the sense that their life is bound with the existence of Arda. It is the possibility of passing beyond the circles of the world and having more scope to decide one's own fate as well.

It seems to me that mortality was the "default setting" for half elven by blood. Mithrellas's children did not get the choice and she surely abandoned her family to avoid the pain of seeing her children age and die. Earendil and Elwing clearly developed as humans not elves since they married in their early twenties and had children at an age decades before Elves would be physically mature and of age to marry. Elronds children are of course more than half Elven and their development may have been more on an elvish timescale as the children of two immortals (the spacing between their births suggest this). The grace of choice extended to them must have been a very mixed blessing and may well explain why Elrond delayed marriage long after meeting and falling in love with Celebrian. Embarking on parenthood knowing that you may be separated eternally from your children must have been appalling and makes her suffering all the more poignant I think.
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Old 08-06-2013, 12:32 PM   #4
Alfirin
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Hmm, but yet the Elves can and will ultimately die with the End of the World.

The Quendi are not denied death [not that you said otherwise], but given a very different kind of life compared to 'brief' mortals.
That's true, I said the "gift" thing a little inaccurately. The "gift" is the chance to enter the afterlife. Death is a "gift" only in that it allows a person to get there (in much the same way that some theologies regard pain and suffering as divine gifts since they allow a soul to be honed and forged to be worthy of the afterlife.) Or that Greek myth about the old woman who treats a god in disguise so well he says he will give her whatever she wishes. When she replies she herself needs nothing but begs the god to give the greatest blessing possible to her children the god agrees and both her children immediately drop dead.

As for the sundering thing, that could explain something else, why Arwen ISN'T at the Grey Havens. She can't go on the boat but you'd think she'd want to be there to say goodbye (it is her father after all). It seems like there may be an even deeper sundering involved in the choice, once an Halfelven chooses mortality, it's as if they are now considered already DEAD by the elves, as if it is forbidden for them to thereafter even ASSOCIATE (as far as I know, there is no record of Elrond taking trips to Numernor to visit his brother. Or Arwen getting visits by her brother. Maybe it's the same thing as Mitherellas, the immortal can't bear seeing their kin die, and the mortal can't bear seeing their kin live.
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Old 08-06-2013, 04:46 PM   #5
Belegorn
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Perhaps. Still, there are many incidents, especially during the Exile of the Dúnedain of Anor, that Elrond has taken care of the Heirs of Elendil who were his kin.

"without the goodwill of Master Elrond the Heirs of Isildur will soon come to an end." - Gilraen

There was one instance with a lady of the Edain named Andreth in the First Age who had a love who was an Elf, but they never got together because of her mortality.
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Old 08-06-2013, 05:32 PM   #6
Alfirin
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Perhaps. Still, there are many incidents, especially during the Exile of the Dúnedain of Anor, that Elrond has taken care of the Heirs of Elendil who were his kin.

"without the goodwill of Master Elrond the Heirs of Isildur will soon come to an end." - Gilraen

There was one instance with a lady of the Edain named Andreth in the First Age who had a love who was an Elf, but they never got together because of her mortality.
A Valid point, though, given the distance, it's a little hard to determine if the reason Elrond helped was because they were his relatives, or just he though it important for the heirs to keep going. After all after a while the Heirs were something like his great great great to many degrees nephews. To a man, that would really probably not still count as "kin". Though I suppose that an immortal, who had known all the generations that had come before personally, might have a different view as to how close someone had to be to still be considered "family". Certainly the fact that Aragorn and Arwen are first cousins many times removed was never cited as being a problem (I am assuming that ME has the same moral issues with inbreeding as we do. Given the way some early European cultures looked at it, they might not).
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Old 08-07-2013, 09:58 PM   #7
Belegorn Calenmir
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Alfrin, Middle-earth does have similar relational laws as we do. Ar-Pharazon married his cousin, which was considered incestuous to the Numenoreans (noted, in some places it is not considered incestuous to marry one's cousin, but if they thought that that was immoral, then there seems to have been a certain amount of taboo connected to marrying relatives.

Sorry, had to indulge the bunny-trail.
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Old 08-08-2013, 05:59 AM   #8
Alfirin
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Originally Posted by Belegorn Calenmir View Post
Alfrin, Middle-earth does have similar relational laws as we do. Ar-Pharazon married his cousin, which was considered incestuous to the Numenoreans (noted, in some places it is not considered incestuous to marry one's cousin, but if they thought that that was immoral, then there seems to have been a certain amount of taboo connected to marrying relatives.

Sorry, had to indulge the bunny-trail.
I never said they did, just that I didn't KNOW if they did. As you said there are places and times where marrying your first cousin was considered OK especially for those of Royal/Noble blood) (Heck from what I understand, marrying your brother/sister was CUSTOMARY for Ancient Egyptian Royalty.) Whatever the case, nothing was seen immoral by Elrond or anyone else in Aragorn and Arwen's union, all those "removeds" were enough to make it OK by Numenorian standards (presumably since the Dunedain descend from "Classical" Numenor their mores are similar.
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