Elrond's speech

[popo]

Thought I would post an Elrond quesiton in this current thread, rather than create a new one.

In the LOTR Appendix I read that the Fourth Age is considered to start upon Elrond's departure from Middle Earth, and not when the One ring is destroyed. This is unlike the Third Age which begins after Sauron is defeated.
I am curious to know how people interpret why Tolkien used Elrond specifically as the catalyst? Did he mean that the fourth age began when ALL the ring bearers departed (Elrond AND Gandalf, Galadrial, Frodo), or is the emphasis really on just Elrond?
I cannot decide why it would be on just Elrond. Unless he represented the last king of the Noldor (after Gil-galad), and his departure really represented the passing of the torch to Men.

[Mithalwen]

I think it is the symbolic passing of the torch and the focus is on Elrond since as father and foster father of Arwen and Aragorn he is the most significant figure from Gondor's perspective. Also he was witness to the major events that ended the previous ages He reached adulthood about the end of the first age and would have witnessed the war of wrath, then witnessed the interim overthrow of Sauron and took up the responsibility if not the title of Gil-galad. Then with the destruction of the ring his task is done

[Pervinca Took]

I agree with Mithalwen, but see the focus as much more shared. Galadriel and the other Ringbearers would still be seen as very significant, I think ... although two [Edit: three] of them were very short-term, of course, and Galadriel (to mortals) was much more hidden and seemingly "mythical," so to speak.

Aragorn would presumably have been very instrumental in matters such as when the new age began, as well as choosing of the date of the new year in Gondor and the celebration of Frodo's birthday (I think this latter one became known as Ring-Day, but I wouldn't swear to it - it might have been the new year date).

I would say that Aragorn's reverence and respect for Galadriel and Gandalf were no less than those he held for Elrond ... plus she was Arwen's grandmother, of course. And his determination to honour the huge part taken in the victory against Sauron by the diminutive Ringbearers is evident both on the Field of Cormallen and in his subsequent deeds, "You shall travel in honour and arrayed as princes of the land," etc - not to mention the two new festival days I mentioned above.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it would be completely down to Aragorn. But if he hadn't honoured and revered the Ringbearers as he did, would his people have done so? Gondor's new king, had he been a con-merchant and not the decent and noble Aragorn, could have downplayed their role. Well, there is the rather obvious tell-tale collapse of Barad-dur, etc, but a skilled spin-doctor, had he wanted to, could have pretended it was more Aragorn's doing than it was (after all, his military and leadership prowess was tremendous, and he had come to the succour of Minas Tirith in the pirate ships, and the fighting immediately following the destruction of the Ring was still very significant).

Admittedly, the Wise would not have thought much of any King of Gondor that would do that, but then they departed two and a half years after the fall of Sauron, and Aragorn continued to honour the part played by the Ringbearers. (OK, the sons of Elrond and Celeborn were still around, but still).

P.S. Welcome to the Downs, Popo.

[Mithalwen]

I agree that Aragorn reveres the other ringbearers by for example asking Gandalf to crown him in lieu of the old tradition which was impossible in this instance. However I do think that Elrond does have extra significance for the reasons already given, and for being a living link to Elros, Elendil and his sons, founders of Gondor. He also provided succour to the northern Dunedain. I think he is focused on because of the historical links which no doubt the recording loremasters would be well aware of.So I think it more a part of the translator conceit than an indicator of favouritism on the part of Aragorn personally.
?

[Pervinca Took]

What was the old crowning tradition? I'm away from my books and can't remember.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

What was the old crowning tradition? I'm away from my books and can't remember.

That the new king would either be given the crown by his father, the old king, or that he would take it from the body of the previous king in the Hallows.

[Pervinca Took]

Thanks. That makes sense. It's made me wonder, though, if all Aragorn's descendants would be allowed to "give back the gift" when they chose, or if this would alter as the Numenorean blood dwindled (as I would have thought it must, there being so few of Aragorn's kin left) - does it say in the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen that Aragorn surrendered the sceptre to Eldarion before closing his eyes? (Away from my books, so can't check at the moment).

Also wonder about the daughters, and whether they could lie down and die in old age, when weary.

Sorry, I know that this probably belongs in another thread.