What do you fight for? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Morsul the Dark · 08-23-2013, 08:39 PM

Well I'll try my hand at this thread if I may.

I think a good example of someone fighting against evil vs "for good" would be Treebeard.
Treebeard in the book(Vs wishy washy movie treebeard) was very strongly for battling Saruman and called the moot to discuss it and plan.

I don't think he really ever thought too much further than the borders of his forest, though. They take out Isengard pretty handily but It isn't a campaign so much as, how to word this, Pest control? It seems Treebeard had to be pushed pretty far before coming to the conclusion battle was needed. As quickly as they subdued the tower, you could attribute that to Helm's Deep but It seems the ents could've take Isengard pretty early on had they wished.

Again though I think while He's trying to save the forest he doesn't seem to have much worry about middle earth as a whole which makes sense. The ents are of course a doomed race so why bother saving a world they won't see?

This is mostly conjecture on my part and based on memory since I haven't read the books in at least 2-3 years.

jallanite · 08-25-2013, 04:55 PM

I can understand what Galadriel55 means by fighting for good and distinguished from fighting against evil, but The Silmarillion does not indicate cases where for Beren there is any necessary distinction between the two.

Or perhaps Beren’s seeking aid from Finrod is such a case, for it leads to Finrod’s death, and Beren seeks Finrod’s aid because of his desire for Lúthien’s hand in marriage, not principally for any desire to fight evil in the abstract, which Galadriel55 also admits.

But Finrod feels himself morally bound by his oath to Barahir, Beren’s father, to aid him in his quest for a Silmaril. Celegorm and Curufin point out that they are morally bound to seek vengeance on any but the sons of Fëanor who find or take a Silmaril. It may be understood that all of the exiled Noldor are understood to have acquiesced to that oath by following Fëanor to Middle-earth. All but ten of Finrod’s Elvish followers forsake Finrod and they alone accompany Finrod and Beren.

Also, does Lúthien have the legal right to take anyone she wishes as her husband against her father’s will? Tolkien says nothing about the power of Sindarin law in this matter, that I recall, but declares that Thingol proclaimed that to make such a request was (legally?) worthy of death, save that Thingol had already agreed to spare Beren’s life.

That Beren “from that time forth he ate no flesh nor slew any living thing that was not in the service of Morgoth” is, as Galadriel55 points out, an interesting point. Does Beren only eat orcs, trolls, wolves, bats, spiders, and the occasional balrog? Does Lúthien share in his dietary preferences?

But Huan is a wolfhound of Valanor in the service of the Noldo Celegorm. Does he also only eat such creatures, presumably mainly wolves?

Would a vegetarian non-hero be considered more moral than a meat-eating hero? Why or why not? Did the Valar eat meat? Did Gandalf eat meat?

08-23-2013, 08:39 PM	#1
Morsul the Dark Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 3,448	Well I'll try my hand at this thread if I may. I think a good example of someone fighting against evil vs "for good" would be Treebeard. Treebeard in the book(Vs wishy washy movie treebeard) was very strongly for battling Saruman and called the moot to discuss it and plan. I don't think he really ever thought too much further than the borders of his forest, though. They take out Isengard pretty handily but It isn't a campaign so much as, how to word this, Pest control? It seems Treebeard had to be pushed pretty far before coming to the conclusion battle was needed. As quickly as they subdued the tower, you could attribute that to Helm's Deep but It seems the ents could've take Isengard pretty early on had they wished. Again though I think while He's trying to save the forest he doesn't seem to have much worry about middle earth as a whole which makes sense. The ents are of course a doomed race so why bother saving a world they won't see? This is mostly conjecture on my part and based on memory since I haven't read the books in at least 2-3 years. __________________ Morsul the Resurrected

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08-25-2013, 04:55 PM	#2
jallanite Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 479	I can understand what Galadriel55 means by fighting for good and distinguished from fighting against evil, but The Silmarillion does not indicate cases where for Beren there is any necessary distinction between the two. Or perhaps Beren’s seeking aid from Finrod is such a case, for it leads to Finrod’s death, and Beren seeks Finrod’s aid because of his desire for Lúthien’s hand in marriage, not principally for any desire to fight evil in the abstract, which Galadriel55 also admits. But Finrod feels himself morally bound by his oath to Barahir, Beren’s father, to aid him in his quest for a Silmaril. Celegorm and Curufin point out that they are morally bound to seek vengeance on any but the sons of Fëanor who find or take a Silmaril. It may be understood that all of the exiled Noldor are understood to have acquiesced to that oath by following Fëanor to Middle-earth. All but ten of Finrod’s Elvish followers forsake Finrod and they alone accompany Finrod and Beren. Also, does Lúthien have the legal right to take anyone she wishes as her husband against her father’s will? Tolkien says nothing about the power of Sindarin law in this matter, that I recall, but declares that Thingol proclaimed that to make such a request was (legally?) worthy of death, save that Thingol had already agreed to spare Beren’s life. That Beren “from that time forth he ate no flesh nor slew any living thing that was not in the service of Morgoth” is, as Galadriel55 points out, an interesting point. Does Beren only eat orcs, trolls, wolves, bats, spiders, and the occasional balrog? Does Lúthien share in his dietary preferences? But Huan is a wolfhound of Valanor in the service of the Noldo Celegorm. Does he also only eat such creatures, presumably mainly wolves? Would a vegetarian non-hero be considered more moral than a meat-eating hero? Why or why not? Did the Valar eat meat? Did Gandalf eat meat?