Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

[alatar]

Burroughs and Mornorngûr, Welcome to the Downs! (and my favorite topic).

Burroughs - Why do you think Sauron was becoming more powerful as the movies proceeded?

Mornorngûr - Is there any indication in Peter Jackson's movies that Gandalf is really "Olorin the Maia sent by the Valar"?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by alatar

Is there any indication in Peter Jackson's movies that Gandalf is really "Olorin the Maia sent by the Valar"?

Is there any indication that Peter Jackson's movies have any fealty toward the books?

I think the answer here is that in the published LOTR the Witch-king is not on the same level as Gandalf. Yes, he, along with the other Nazgûl, do borrow some of Sauron's power (at the cost of losing their own identities forever). However, Tolkien said in Letters # 246 that Gandalf had a real chance of defeating Sauron one-on-one in a contest to determine the master of the One, if Gandalf had claimed it. If Gandalf could stand up to Sauron himself, the WK had no hope.

On the other hand, as alatar notes, the casual movie-watcher to whom the books are unknown, sees Gandalf as only a "wizard", and the Witch-king as at least an equal. Gandalf is less, and he is more in PJ's world. The movie standards are very fluid, as far as character personalities and "powers" are represented, and you might as well say that Arwen could defeat the Nazgûl all by herself.

[alatar]

Just saying, you can't hold someone accountable for what's in the Books when all he or she knows are the Movies.

My question is, 'Did Peter Jackson convincingly make the case that Gandalf was inferior to the Witch-King?' Seems that when the two met, it was the White Wizard that got powned...

And Arwen faced down the Nine! Makes you realize whey Sauron built that big wall.

[Belegorn]

Although, "There are few even in Rivendell that can ride openly against the Nine;" [FotR, p. 256] I doubt Arwen was one of these. However, in the movie she was the Glorfindel substitute.

[Zigûr]

Just imagine how chilling it could have been to see that moment when the Gates are sundered. There is a stillness, and then "In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl."

But no, the gate falls to let in marauding video-game trolls and the Witch-King swoops down on Gandalf from above (which apparently he could have done any time), gets out his 3rd Edition Player's Handbook, picks the "Blow up staff" spell and then flies away again.

One of the things I think is so effective in The Lord of the Rings is that we never really known who would triumph in these personal encounters of good vs evil because they so rarely happen. There is a greater anxiety, a sense of things hanging in the balance. The films are very reluctant to pursue this.

[Belegorn]

Speaking of the rarity of these encounters, let's take Melkor who was "the mightiest of the the dwellers in Eä" [Sil, p. 78] and yet he was clearly outclassed by Tulkas in their encounter just before he was imprisoned by the Valar. I believe, in an earlier blow by blow of the Powers, Tulkas is not even in the top bunch which included just 9 of the Valar, they were known as the Aratar, "the High Ones of Arda" [Sil, p. 23]

[Sarumian]

I think I can understand now what exactly irritates me in this scene. It is very much about the integrity of the whole story, but it is not even about measuring powers. That would be a 'sauronish' take on the events.

In the book this scene is (in my opinion) about conviction. At that moment Minas Tirith is de-facto lost, the stronghold is broken, its defenders ran away. Whether Gandalf is more powerful than the Witch King or not, he has no hope to keep Sauron's army out for long, it's too huge. And yet he is going to hold his ground. Why?

Because he believes that it makes sense against the odds. He believes, Eru had not sent him back in vain. He believes, Eru shall not allow his dignity to be crushed in the dust as it is now Eru's dignity as well. Gandalf is there because, having already died and resurrected, he knows why one needs to keep hope when there is no hope. And why power is not everything.

The movie, on the other hand, tells the story of how old power is going, and new power is coming. Lord Aragorn is here to replace the Dark Lord Sauron. Age of men begins and all other powers, dwarves, elves and even Ainur should fade and be gone from the shores of Middle Earth. That is very much how Sauron saw his own errand - with the amendment that it is not him but men of the West will rule from now on. Aragorn is shown as if he obtained and mastered the Ring and Gandalf is around just for his former services to the new King.

This is, actually, why Jackson completely misunderstood Gandalf's other best disciple, Faramir. Thanks to Gandalf's training, he is able to understand WHAT the Ring is, and this is why he's able to reject it very much like Galadriel.

And thus Gandalf-the-Seepish in the shadow of the old or the new King is not only a far cry from Gandalf-the-White with his vigorous Maia spirit, with his elven Ring that helps to keep spirit strong and with his special bound with Eru. The whole story becomes different: Tolkien tries to convince us that there is something more than power over other beings in the world, and that is the real Power; Peter Jackson tells us a tale about game of thrones and change of powers...

[Mornorngûr]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Just imagine how chilling it could have been to see that moment when the Gates are sundered. There is a stillness, and then "In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl."

But no, the gate falls to let in marauding video-game trolls and the Witch-King swoops down on Gandalf from above (which apparently he could have done any time), gets out his 3rd Edition Player's Handbook, picks the "Blow up staff" spell and then flies away again.

This is funny as ****, made me laugh so hard.