Saurons Weapon of Choice? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Inziladun · 11-29-2013, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Saruman not only adopted the White Hand as his symbol, but his Orcs even referred to "the White Hand at gives us mansflesh to eat." I don't think this implies that Saruman didn't possess two hands both pale pinkish in hue.

However, the Orcs were referring to a symbol only. Gollum was speaking of Sauron's physical hand. If Gollum had said "the Red Eye", I could see the parallel.

jallanite · 12-11-2013, 06:05 PM

It seems to me that William Cloud Hicklin’s point is that the Orcs and Gollum are using the term hand in a different way, the Orcs as a symbol used to represent Saruman as a whole and Gollum using the “Black Hend” to refer to Sauron’s physical black hand.

No parallel is suggested by Hiacklin, but is indeed denied by him implicitly, so naturally Inziladun doesn’t see a ṗarallel which doesn’t exist, and which no-one else apparently sees.

Note that Tolkien’s only picture of Sauron can be seen at http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-l3SDT89zXC...+of+Sauron.jpg .

Only one arm and hand is shown (and only Sauron’s right eye), but there is nothing to indicate that the viewer is supposed to suppose that the other is missing rather than merely not shown. It is Sauron’s right hand that is shown, and it has the full complement of a thumb and four fingers. Presuming that the image represents Sauron as re-embodied after having his ring finger cut off by Isildur, it appears that Sauron’s Black Hand was his unshown left hand.

William Cloud Hicklin · 12-12-2013, 05:42 PM

What I think I was trying to get across was that it would be odd indeed if Sauron was piebald and had hands of two different colors. Nor can we suppose that the Ring-hand was somehow burned black; it was Sauron who heated the Ring, not vice-versa. It would be more sensible if we assumed that Sauron (post-Numenor) was black all over, with flaming eyes and a body that emitted burning heat. If that sounds a little Balrogish-- well, why not? There is a certain logic to Sauron regressing in that direction.

And again, consider T's essay on Sigelhearwan.

12-12-2013, 05:42 PM	#3
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	What I think I was trying to get across was that it would be odd indeed if Sauron was piebald and had hands of two different colors. Nor can we suppose that the Ring-hand was somehow burned black; it was Sauron who heated the Ring, not vice-versa. It would be more sensible if we assumed that Sauron (post-Numenor) was black all over, with flaming eyes and a body that emitted burning heat. If that sounds a little Balrogish-- well, why not? There is a certain logic to Sauron regressing in that direction. And again, consider T's essay on Sigelhearwan. __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

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12-11-2013, 06:05 PM	#2
jallanite Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 479	It seems to me that William Cloud Hicklin’s point is that the Orcs and Gollum are using the term hand in a different way, the Orcs as a symbol used to represent Saruman as a whole and Gollum using the “Black Hend” to refer to Sauron’s physical black hand. No parallel is suggested by Hiacklin, but is indeed denied by him implicitly, so naturally Inziladun doesn’t see a ṗarallel which doesn’t exist, and which no-one else apparently sees. Note that Tolkien’s only picture of Sauron can be seen at http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-l3SDT89zXC...+of+Sauron.jpg . Only one arm and hand is shown (and only Sauron’s right eye), but there is nothing to indicate that the viewer is supposed to suppose that the other is missing rather than merely not shown. It is Sauron’s right hand that is shown, and it has the full complement of a thumb and four fingers. Presuming that the image represents Sauron as re-embodied after having his ring finger cut off by Isildur, it appears that Sauron’s Black Hand was his unshown left hand.