Sauron's name

[William Cloud Hicklin]

But that still doesn't help resolve the Mouth of Sauron problem--- set up by Aragorn's observation at Amon Hen that the dead Orcs bearing a white S-rune must be Saruman's because Sauron neither used white nor permitted "his true name" to be used.

(second continuity error- Gorbag's Orcs from Minas Morgul did in fact use white)

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Note- "Words, Phrases and Passages" aka "Nomenclature" aka "Guide to the Names" etc. ought to be considered 'published' and thus canonical, as Tolkien provided a copy to A&U so that they in turn could give copies to foreign translators.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Note- "Words, Phrases and Passages" aka "Nomenclature" aka "Guide to the Names" etc. ought to be considered 'published' and thus canonical, as Tolkien provided a copy to A&U so that they in turn could give copies to foreign translators.

Well, since someone revived the thread...

... Nomenclature/Guide to the Names I do consider to be 'nearly published' by the author and thus high on the canonical shelving, but Words Phrases And Passages[WPP] is a different animal, no? Did Tolkien provide copies of WPP too? It doesn't seem very ready for that, at least in all parts.

Anyway I note how in WPP Tolkien changes his mind about the derivation of Sauron, for example:

SAWA-, disgusting, foul, vile: [Q saura, foul, vile, whence name Sauron]* prefix Q sau- as in saucare, doing or making a thing very badly. Not used in Sindarin as prefix; but the adjective saur occurs in the sense 'bad' of food etc., putrid, also substantive saw, filth, putrescence

also Q soa, filth (sawá). [added in left margin]

*This name is also used in late 3[rd] age Sindarin and could be a genuine Sindarin formation from saur; but is probably from Quenya. The ancient Sindarin name for Sauron was Gorthaur, of quite distinct origin: from ÑGOR- 'terror' and THUS- evil mist, fog, Darkness: ñgor(o)-thúsó > Gorthu 'Mist of Fear'; cf. thû, horrible darkness, black mist < thúsé.

Sauron's original name was Mairon, but this was altered after he was suborned by Melkor. But he continued to call himself Mairon the Admirable, or Tar-mairon 'King excellent' until after the downfall of Númenor. The Quenya form equivalent to Gorthu was: ñorthus, ñorsus, stem ñorsur-.

'No THAW-, cruel. Saura, cruel. Gorthaur'

SAWA 'bad, unhealthy, ill, wretched'

Just a simple 'no' then a new base THAW- appears.

Did Tolkien mean 'No' for everything he had just written, including the digression on Mairon? Mairon doesn't hail from the base SAWA- in any case, so I would say...

... maybe, yes... or simply 'no'

[Morthoron]

Sauron's original name was Myron. Being a Myron, he was of course a bit nerdy and was bullied incessantly in the band hall at the Ainulindalë School of the Musically Gifted. This certainly played a part in his later psychopathic behavior.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

But that still doesn't help resolve the Mouth of Sauron problem--- set up by Aragorn's observation at Amon Hen that the dead Orcs bearing a white S-rune must be Saruman's because Sauron neither used white nor permitted "his true name" to be used.

My opinion is that Sauron allowed the mouth to use "Sauron" in the parley at the Morannon for the sake of simplicity. Saying "I am the Mouth of that-great-leader-whom-you-already-know-cos-he-did-all-sorts-of-cool-stuff-and-brought-down-Númenor-and-made-rings" just seems melodramatic.

A general ban on his troops and slaves saying that name could have stemmed from a "Big Brother" like attempt to be an impersonal, unapproachable, godlike Force rather than a creature with possible faults.

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

(second continuity error- Gorbag's Orcs from Minas Morgul did in fact use white)

Well, maybe old Strider just didn't know everything. Perhaps he was thinking on;y of the Red Eye as a badge, and didn't know different assignments for Orcs might have carried other devices.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Or bonus Homerus dormitat. I suspect that T's thought when he wrote Aragorn's statement was that the epithet the Elves considered his "true" (i.e. their) name - Sauron/Gorthaur "the detestable" - was an insult that the Dark Lord naturally would have resented and never used, just like nobody I'm sure ever called the Duke of Normandy "William the Bastard" in his presence, or for that matter Grima ever called himself Wormtongue.

But then in the later chapter T simply forgot. For both simplicity and the requisite awesomeness, far better for the line to have been "I am the Mouth of the King of Kings" or "the Lord of Middle-earth" or even just "the Dark Lord."

[Alfirin]

Well, maybe not "The King of Kings". I doubt Tolkien would EVER feel right about using that title for Sauron, even in the mouth of the wicked.

Personally given his old personal title translated to "The Excellent King" I might go with something along the lines of "The Lord/Master of All" (technically he isn't that either, but I'm sure Sauron's ego would love for his servant to think of him as the equal or even superior, of Illuvitar). Actually The Mouth could simply call himself something like "The Voice of Darkness" and those he spoke to would probably know who he was speaking for.

[Alcuin]

Melkor, “he who arises in might” > Morgoth, “black enemy”, was given to the evil Vala by Fëanor in his grief and anguish.

Fëanor was the chief of the Lambengolmor, “Loremasters of Tongues”, a Noldorin school of study he founded. (Rúmil and Pengolod would presumably have been members of this group of scholars.) The shift Melkor > Morgoth, (Q: Morikotto) both consonates and alliterates, particularly in Quenya. It is a not-so-subtle intellectual insult, and with a little effort, we could probably come up with a short list of real-world names similarly and deliberately mangled. In any case, it might be “a low philological jest”, which as David Salo (a better Tolkien scholar than I) has recently suggested “is not at all untypical of Tolkien’s linguistic work.”

Elves were particularly fond of language. If we grant for a moment (even in an imaginative stretch) that Mairon was the Sindarin version of Sauron’s original name in Valarin, and that he used it in dealing with the Elves in Middle-earth, the shift Mairon, “Admirable” > Þauron “Abominable” > Sauron both alliterates and rhymes. “Regular elvish trick,” as Gorbag might have put it. That might also explain why there was an older name for Sauron in Sindarin, Gorthaur, “abominable fear”. Perhaps the gor- was simply dropped, or maybe the Eldar in Middle-earth punned his preferred name.

In both cases we can see alliteration. In Quenya, second similarities can be found at the beginnings of the syllables (consonation), while in Sindarin the second similarities are shifted to the ends of syllables (rhymes). That would fit Tolkien’s style of differentiation between the parent and daughter languages, Quenya and Sindarin: similar forms, but not quite the same. It would at the same time highlight the close relationship between the thought processes of the Calaquendi and the Sindar, the Amanyar and Úmanyar.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

That might also explain why there was an older name for Sauron in Sindarin, Gorthaur, “abominable fear”. Perhaps the gor- was simply dropped, or maybe the Eldar in Middle-earth punned his preferred name.

Was Gorthaur in fact older? It may be the case; I don't know. It is possible that the Sindar had grim experience of Mairon/Gorthaur during the Chaining of Melkor, long before the Noldorin exiles appeared on the scene. But then again, there is no reason to think that the Eldar of Valinor had ever encountered Sauron, since he explicitly was Melkor's deputy and the Lieutenant of Angband before the Chaining and thus was gone from Valinor long before the Great Journey. (So how would they know his 'true' name?)

It would appear that Q. Sauron would have to be an Exilic name adapted from Sindarin (with no intermediate theta-form, Feanor's revanchism no longer being an issue). The Gor- element might just have been an 'optional' intensifier,* used commonly in the Sindarin version to distinguish the name from the common noun. The question arises, though, why the Quenya form became (apparently) dominant despite the adoption of Sindarin by the Exiles**; it perhaps might reflect the fact that Sauron was not a matter of general concern for the Elves until ca 1000 SA or later, and it took a long time to identify 'Annatar' with Morgoth's XO; by the time Dark Lord Jr. became a matter for discussion it was an issue for the Wise (+/- Celebrimbor), whom we might suppose to have spoken Quenya among themselves.

-------------------
*As was, I think, certainly the case back in the days of Thu/Gorthu

**In external reality, of course Gorthaur had been his his 'Noldorin' name

[tom the eldest]

His name is mairon the admirable,but after he join morgoth he became sauron/gorthaur the cruel.

[Erestor]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

But that still doesn't help resolve the Mouth of Sauron problem--- set up by Aragorn's observation at Amon Hen that the dead Orcs bearing a white S-rune must be Saruman's because Sauron neither used white nor permitted "his true name" to be used.

(second continuity error- Gorbag's Orcs from Minas Morgul did in fact use white)

Actually, that second one never struck me as a continuity error.

And he does not use white. The Orcs in service of Barad-dûr use the sign of the Red Eye.

I see the emphasized remark as an important specification. They were talking about the S-rune and the possibility that it would stand for Sauron. This would imply that those Orcs would be under Sauron's direct command, or at least as close as it could be, and thus in service of Barad-dûr. I think one should view the lands conquered by Sauron not as one big realm, but divided into different areas which were ruled by his vassals, comparable to the fiefs of Gondor. For this reason I don't view the armies from Morgul as Sauron's "personal" armies, but as the Witch-Kings armies. After all, their has to be a good reason the Morgul-Orcs carried a different emblem. In this light, the remark of Aragorn makes sense.

Don't have much to say about the other error though.