What if Glorfindel joined the fellowship to Lothlorien?

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

Gandlaf was not planning to play tennis with Rafa. ))) He was not supposed to be involved in a personal combat with Sauron.

What I would say - if the competition is not in playing tennis but in finding a needle on the court it could happen than a kid can be more efficient than Nadal. And if the quest is to recall all great champions of the past, n that case "a limp and near-sighted senior citizen" can be much better.

Heh, no they weren't playing tennis unfortunately, I bet Glorfy would kick Sauron's hiney on the centre court! Okay the metaphor was inept perhaps, but still, what exactly would Merry and Pippin be expected to contribute with, apart from bourgeois chit-chat?

Originally Posted by Sarumian

Yes, these guys were able to feel "the presence of the Force" Gandalf was actually extremely good at keeping low profile.

Mm much like WCH I think too much is made of this sensing the presence of, you know, po-wah. Sure, Gandalf and the Balrog could sense each other in Moria but only (as I remember it) when they had just a door between them and when they were using their magic in direct conflict.

Speaking of Elf lords and Sauron, there is the event when Felagund was captured. Together with Beren and his companions they traveled up the vale of Sirion hoping to get past Tol-in-Gaurhoth on their way to Angband. Sporting the gear of slain orcs and also the faces of them by courtesy of Felagund's magic they got quite far but Sauron grew suspicious and waylaid them when they did not stop to report their deeds as all servants of Morgoth were ordered to do. So here we have a great Elf-lord trying to sneak past Sauron and although he is caught it's by rather mundane means, not by Sauron 'sensing a disturbance in the force'. And Felagund's magic tricks seems to come very much in handy. I bet Glorfy could do some pretty nifty stuff too.

[Arathorn111]

WOW! This thread has exploded since I last checked on it, and I love it!


Skip sense (and others):

Well to be honest the ability of Sauron of spoting great powers is something I've gotten from reading to many posts here on the barrows, and I thought that my post would get slaughtered if I didnät include this.


Tuor in Gondolin:

Then why not include a representative of the elves of Rivendell?


Thank you all for keeping the discussion alive!

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Arathorn111

Skip sense

We've been saying that about Skip for years.

[Arathorn111]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

We've been saying that about Skip for years.

Haha, I didn't even reflect over it.

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Mm much like WCH I think too much is made of this sensing the presence of, you know, po-wah. Sure, Gandalf and the Balrog could sense each other in Moria but only (as I remember it) when they had just a door between them and when they were using their magic in direct conflict.

Honestly, I was joking and think, the matter of Sauron's "elf-dar" is a red herring. We know that the presence of big baddies in proximity was felt by all creatures. Nazgul are known for sending even big formations into panic, while the proximity of the Balrog even Aragorn, who was able to sustain the terror of five Nazgul, as well as Legolas, who later successfully shoot a Nazgul over the Great river with his arrow, have got unwilling to raise their arms. Even Barrow wights paralysed and confused those in their presence.

It seemed to me, big Goodies produced some effect on baddies too. Orks probably hated the aura of Loth-Lorien and were unable to fight there properly. The sight of an elf-lord in his wrath contributed to the panic among Nazgul at the Ford. Gullum naturally suffered of everything made by elves (even elves of Mirkwood).

I am not saying Sauron could search ME with just gazing from his Tower, but let's not forget that both Galladriel and Gandalf were able to fight his mind on a great distance. And if Galladriel's location was known, Sauron could hardly have expected an assault from Gandalf the White sitting high, looking far... ))))

But the real matter was the travel through Mordor. Hobbits were extremely capable of stay unnoticed when they wanted so. A presence of an elf-lord in Mordor could have been disclosed easier.

The other thing that could have come to Gandalf's mind (we cannot know) was that as hobbits were not known to the folk of Mordor, it would be possible to send the enemy on a false trail, as it happened in the end. If Pipin and Mery would have promptly entered Minath Tirith, the enemy would have located the Ring in a wrong way.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Originally posted by Alfirin

If Saruman was left completely unopposed, it is likely that his plan would have suceeded. Theoden would have probably been dead or impotent, Eomer would likey have been caught and excuted, Grima would be married to Eowyn and probably in charge of Rohan meaning Saruman would be in charge), Fangorn would probably be leveled and the massacred (they were the turning point in the assault, but would they have done so well had they had to try and take down Isengard entirely on thier own, especially or even if Rohan was on Saruman's side. And that's assuming that, in the absence of Merry and Pippen the Ent Moot would even have worked). No Rohan, no help for Minas Tirith, (including no Dead men of Dunharrow, no Gandalf to buy time agaist the WK and no Eowyn to slay him, so the siege would likey have suceeded. Gandalf maybe believe that his missing will not have failed if anything remains intact, but when faced with the likelyhood of that "anything" basically consisting of the Shire and Bree (if that) might give even him pause.

I'd disagree with some of this as an alternate scenario.

1) Lorien, Rivendell, the Shire, and particularly the Lonely Mountain and dale would have been unaffected, and with Sauron possibly being destroyed a few days earlier with Gandalf along to hurry up Frodo towards Mount Doom, Eriador and Rhovannion would be even less effected by inroads of Sauron's forces---held back anyway at the siege of Erebor.
2) A few more days/weeks of Saruman burning the fringes of Fangorn would not have affected most of the forest, have even more enraged the ents.
3) The Ents would have had an even easier time at Isengard since the bulk of his army would have been further away, occupying Helm's deep and far to the East around Edoras.
4) While it's probable much of Rohan and also Minis Tirith would have been occupied it's quite likely Aragorn would mhave led resisitance fighters into the White Mountains (through the secret passages alluded to in LoTR).
5) Given the resistance put up by the Rohirrim even during the Long Winter (see Helm Hammerhand) there would probably be resistance on both sides of the White Mountains.
6) It's not necessarily a good thing to be the king if you're Grima Wormtongue and scheme to marry Eowyn. Best not doze off, GW.

In short, a largely intact north, a south (Gondor and Rohan) with bad loss of people and material, but recoverable---and an even more heroic (for Gondorians) King, sort of like Alfred the Great after Athelney.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

But the real matter was the travel through Mordor. Hobbits were extremely capable of stay unnoticed when they wanted so. A presence of an elf-lord in Mordor could have been disclosed easier.

Yes but I believe that Elves were said to be even better than Hobbits at moving without a sound and being stealthy and all. There are many stories from the First Age involving Elf-Lords that strengthen this view too. Plus, as I said, an Elf of Rivendell would have many other skills, in fex. fighting, magic, geography, language, lore, woodsmanship that could've been invaluable, skills the Hobbits could not match at all.

Originally Posted by Sarumian

The other thing that could have come to Gandalf's mind (we cannot know) was that as hobbits were not known to the folk of Mordor, it would be possible to send the enemy on a false trail, as it happened in the end. If Pipin and Mery would have promptly entered Minath Tirith, the enemy would have located the Ring in a wrong way.

Hehe that thought struck me too, that they were brought along as, well, bait. Sauron and Saruman snapping their jaws at the halfling not realising that there are several running across their lands. Would seem a tad cynical of old Gandalf though...

But you know, I'm really just playing the devil's advocate. This is supposed to be the Hobbits' story, I get that.

Originally Posted by Arathorn111 View Post
Skip sense

Originally Posted by Morth

We've been saying that about Skip for years.

What, skip sense, I don't get it :P

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by skip spence

But you know, I'm really just playing the devil's advocate. This is supposed to be the Hobbits' story, I get that.

Well, me too, or, rather an elven advocate, who just is desperate to find rational arguments defending a High Elf from being accused of cowardice.

I think your arguments are absolutely valuable. But I also believe that the nature of Glorfindel's mission in Middle Earth was more about guarding the Last Homely House rather than marching on Barad-dur.