Your Take On Eöl & Maeglin

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Originally Posted by Morthoron

Tolkien may not have liked his creation morally (and nearly every character Tolkien dislikes morally finds a nasty end), but like Milton's Lucifer being far more real and living than the Archangel Michael in Paradise Lost (the great William Blake slyly noted that Milton was "of the Devil's party without knowing it."), Tolkien obviously found creating Eol more interesting than most of the generic elves he portrayed, even editing out the rape of Aredhel to more of a seductiion so that Eol would not appear utterly evil.

Good one, I like the Milton's Lucifer reference! And I think you are quite right. The other day I thought of Gollum, and how he is a fantastic character. Utterly corrupted, but still with a core of humanity left deep inside, and his fascinating persona comes out vividly in the books. The members of the fellowship (with the exception of Sam) are actually quite dull as characters I think. But Gollum, he's an amazing fictional character, Tolkien must have loved writing those parts.

And yeah I like Eöl too, as a character he also comes out vividly. Feels like I understand how he thinks, and it makes sense from his point of view, though he really isn't a pleasant fellow, is he? Maeglin is a cool character too. Morally he really is detestable. Ungrateful son, ungrateful foster-son, traitor to all. But still, you can feel for him, he had some rough times.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Maeglin is a cool character too. Morally he really is detestable. Ungrateful son, ungrateful foster-son, traitor to all. But still, you can feel for him, he had some rough times.

I think Maeglin is more cold than cool. He's calculating and self-centered. If he'd been raised by his father in isolated Nan Elmoth that might be explicable, but he's instead welcomed into the top tier of Gondolin society and treated like a prince, which he basically is. He then, out of all the women in the city, decides on his first cousin as a love interest. That alone doesn't speak well for him, as such unions were obviously considered to be of evil in Arda. The later Ar-Pharazön took that even further, of course, forcibly taking his cousin to wife. Maeglin was promised "possession" of Idril by Morgoth as a reward for his treachery, and that also speaks of less a true love than a desire for power and control.

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I'm with you bro. Maeglin is horrible. I can certainly see why the Elves single him out as the worst traitor of their kind. No excuse for that sort of stuff. The sins of, say, Feanor isn't even close. He's a nice fictional character though. That Aredhel/Eöl/Maeglin sub-story is one of my favorites in the Silmarillion, and I love how it weaves into the Tuor story-line and the Fall of Gondolin and well, just about every story.

[Nikkolas]

Originally Posted by skip spence

I'm with you bro. Maeglin is horrible. I can certainly see why the Elves single him out as the worst traitor of their kind. No excuse for that sort of stuff. The sins of, say, Feanor isn't even close. He's a nice fictional character though. That Aredhel/Eöl/Maeglin sub-story is one of my favorites in the Silmarillion, and I love how it weaves into the Tuor story-line and the Fall of Gondolin and well, just about every story.

...Feanor is responsible for countless deaths. All the Noldor who died are on his head. That includes the ones Maeglin sold out to Morgoth. Also Feanor was never tortured - he just decided one day to slaughter all his kin and steal their boats. All while leading his followers to their deaths. (he certainly didn't care if Fingolfin's team lived or died) And don't even start with "but his mommy and daddy died!!!" Maeglin's father tried to murder him and as a result murdered his mother all right in front of his young eyes. I would think this would have a kind of negative impact on a person's psychological development. And trauma isn't cured just because you are royalty.

Feanor was an awful, awful person and has no excuse for anything he did. He did more harm to the world than anyone save the Dark Lords.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

...Feanor is responsible for countless deaths.

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Feanor was an awful, awful person and has no excuse for anything he did. He did more harm to the world than anyone save the Dark Lords.

It is said of the disposition of the Noldor, not just Fëanor, that Galadriel who, "had a marvelous gift of insight into the minds of others" in Fëanor "she perceived a darkness that she hated and feared". However, "she DID NOT perceive that the shadow of the SAME EVIL had fallen upon the minds of ALL the NOLDOR., and upon her OWN." [U.T., p. 241] It is a stain that has touched the Noldor.

Certainly Feanor was a leader in the uprising of the Noldor, but he was not the lone leader as it is mentioned there were other princes of the Noldor who were leaders, Galadriel for instance who was banned from Valinor. When Melkor spoke of weapons to them it was not just Fëanor who built weapons, nor he alone who had desires of ruling his own kingdom without the overreach of the Valar.

Fëanor's father whom, ""was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless works of his hands; and who among sons, of Elves or of Men, have held their fathers of greater worth?" [Sil., ch. 9, p. 88] was murdered. He loved his father most of all. If the murder of Maeglin's mother could have a negative impact on him so could Fëanor's father with himself, "he was distraught with grief for the slaying of his father" [p. 92]. It seems to some degree his father's death snapped Fëanor who thought, "in the madness of his rage and grief that had he been at Formenos his strength would have availed more than to be slain also, as Melkor had purposed." [p. 88]

I think Fëanor used his power to manipulate his people and to urge them on from Aman, "the Noldor were stirred to madness" [p. 92]. However, it was not as if Fëanor was the lone person who had the shadow of darkness on him. As you see others may have seen it in him, but failed to notice it in themselves and everyone else around them. I think the responsibility for the deaths of the Noldor does not fall on Fëanor's shoulders alone because these people chose to go with him and some like Finarfin did not.

[Belegorn]

And Fëanor did not join forces with Melkor to set up his people's destruction. His purpose was one of revenge for his greatest love [father] against his greatest hate [Melkor], "none of the Eldalië ever hated Melkor more than Fëanor".

[Nikkolas]

Revenge, or the desire to reclaim his pretty gems? Was the Oath of Feanor that doomed all his sons and so many others to misery "I shall kill Morgoth" or "i shall reclaim the Silmarils at all costs"? Exactly. And if Feanor loved his father, he wouldn't have betrayed and hated his father's sons. His father's blood ran iN Fingolfin's veins too and yet Feanor was perfectly content to leave them all to die. After he committed unprovoked murder."

So, no, just because he hated Melkor doesn't make him better than Maeglin. Maeglin never killed his fellow elves for no reason.