Boromir - An example of a man?

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Perhaps a good example of an "ordinary man" and how said would
react is Bard the Archer. In fact the whole political Esgaroth situation
is the closest to Democratic in Middle-earth (hobbits are more
minimalists-and unknown to them, really protected). Would Bard's
grandson Bard II have used the Ring? Very likely when the Lonely Mountain
was besieged, although perhaps temporarily advised against it by the nearby
ally elves. And no, I haven't seen PJ's latest assault on The Hobbit. The first
was enough.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

Would Bard's
grandson Bard II have used the Ring? Very likely when the Lonely Mountain
was besieged, although perhaps temporarily advised against it by the nearby
ally elves. And no, I haven't seen PJ's latest assault on The Hobbit. The first
was enough.

I think it's clear that anyone possessing the One Ring would be ultimately be unable to resist claiming and using it sooner or later. Those with great power (Gandalf) or ambition (Boromir) were just especially vulnerable. A Bard or Barliman Butterbur might hold out longer, but probably still wouldn't do as well as a Hobbit.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I think it's clear that anyone possessing the One Ring would be ultimately be unable to resist claiming and using it sooner or later.

This reminds me of the idea I argued in another thread that Boromir had, arguably, the learning of the High without the usually correlative wisdom, which was why he simultaneously was capable of desiring to effect grand schemes with the Ring and struggled to resist its temptations.
But of course anyone would indeed have succumbed eventually, although Boromir lacked humility as a substitute for or alternative to wisdom also. Yet the Ring was ultimately irresistible in the same way that it could not be conventionally destroyed. Everyone would have made the same choice as Frodo if they had been in his position at the Crack of Doom. Sauron himself could not have voluntarily destroyed the Ring.

[MCRmyGirl4eva]

That's an interesting interpretation, and I believe that you have a valid point. Of course, for fear of redundancy, I'm not going to argue the point for or against, but I can see how you drew that conclusion. However, I see it less as him being "modern", and more as being an example of how people react when controlled by fear.

Welcome to the barrowdowns!!!! *throws confetti*

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

This reminds me of the idea I argued in another thread that Boromir had, arguably, the learning of the High without the usually correlative wisdom, which was why he simultaneously was capable of desiring to effect grand schemes with the Ring and struggled to resist its temptations.
But of course anyone would indeed have succumbed eventually, although Boromir lacked humility as a substitute for or alternative to wisdom also. Yet the Ring was ultimately irresistible in the same way that it could not be conventionally destroyed. Everyone would have made the same choice as Frodo if they had been in his position at the Crack of Doom. Sauron himself could not have voluntarily destroyed the Ring.

Everyone alive would have made the same choice as Frodo. There are possible exceptions to this.

I dislike the notion that being a 'High' man with wisdom makes you less susceptible to the corruption of the ring. It is a matter of character. A relatively uneducated Hobbit like Sam was able to resist due to his good Hobbit sense. At the same time Hobbit like creature, Smeagol, was utterly ensnared. Faramir and Denethor are two people of equal education and power of mind. These are two examples of what a Numenorean used to be. Faramir is noble and does resist the ring, but Denethor equally as wise as Faramir would have taken it.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I dislike the notion that being a 'High' man with wisdom makes you less susceptible to the corruption of the ring. It is a matter of character. A relatively uneducated Hobbit like Sam was able to resist due to his good Hobbit sense.

Apart from Sam and Bombadil, isn't everyone who resists the Ring someone of High stature? I never said I was exclusively talking about Men. Gandalf, Galadriel and Faramir all had the wisdom to understand the Ring's corruption. The Ring took advantage of Boromir's 'Middle-ness': his warlike nature and enthusiasm for martial prowess. I'm not trying to argue that it's the only reason but I think it definitely plays a role. My point is that by the end of the Third Age in Gondor Men were of an increasingly Middling nature with the learning of the High, and that this was a source of inner tension. Faramir and Aragorn were both throwbacks to the day when people from High cultures were also of High stature. At least, I think there is a difference.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Apart from Sam and Bombadil, isn't everyone who resists the Ring someone of High stature? I never said I was exclusively talking about Men. Gandalf, Galadriel and Faramir all had the wisdom to understand the Ring's corruption. The Ring took advantage of Boromir's 'Middle-ness': his warlike nature and enthusiasm for martial prowess. I'm not trying to argue that it's the only reason but I think it definitely plays a role. My point is that by the end of the Third Age in Gondor Men were of an increasingly Middling nature with the learning of the High, and that this was a source of inner tension. Faramir and Aragorn were both throwbacks to the day when people from High cultures were also of High stature. At least, I think there is a difference.

I would not say Bombadill is someone of low stature at all. Bilbo at the time he found the ring was certainly not as knowledgeable as he would become and I would say even Frodo only became knowledgeable after his suffering.

The ring takes advantage of everything. It's a question of character and not education.

You mention Galadriel, but she was as sorely tempted as anyone and had the trial been in her youth may have failed.

Denethor was just as much a throwback as Faramir. Saruman knew more about the ring than anyone and was head of the order. You can be High and reject the things the rings stands for or High and accept it much like Saruman and Denethor. The same way you can be a 'Middle Man' like Eomer and trust the judgement or fall like Boromir.

Morgoth was the greatest and mightiest of the Ainur, but he was the one too fall. Throughout the story and in the case of the ring being 'High' or 'Low' has not mattered.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

The ring takes advantage of everything. It's a question of character and not education.

Now that I think about it I'm not sure why I was arguing the point I was because it's quite opposed to how I read The Lord of the Rings, for many of the same reasons you gave.

In his chapter on The Lord of the Rings in Classic Cult Fiction Thomas Reed Whissen argues that The Lord of the Rings “reminds us of how much our notion of good and evil and our power to resist temptation depend, not upon reason and will, but upon the kind of family and society into which we happen to have been born and by which we have been educated.” Yet this can be seen as patently untrue through Boromir alone, as well as Denethor, Saruman, even Sauron himself.

So if Boromir's susceptibility is a matter of character and not culture, how does he reflect whatever Professor Tolkien's opinion is on how much choice we have over our own actions? Is this a 'nature vs nurture' question, and does Professor Tolkien fall on the side of nature? Or is there a compromise to be found between these two aspects and circumstance? I am loath to suggest that Professor Tolkien was ever guilty of that for which he is so regularly accused by his detractors, that he did not draw humanity in complex terms.

[Bard the Bowman]

Bard the Archer. In fact the whole political Esgaroth situation
is the closest to Democratic in Middle-earth (hobbits are more
minimalists-and unknown to them, really protected). Would Bard's
grandson Bard II have used the Ring? Very likely when the Lonely Mountain
was besieged, although perhaps temporarily advised against it by the nearby
ally elves.

+1