Arwen vs. Galadriel

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Please point to me where he is called an Elf?...<--snip-->...'and in companionship with the Maiar. To these he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate... his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by self-sacrifice.'

Shelob was more beautiful than Arwen. Treebeard was more beautiful than Shelob, and Galadriel smelled of Dwarves, so that made her short. Maia can be smelled into Shelobs if Ungoliant did have a bottom to her bottomless greed. So, Shelob must have been more bottomless (therefore beautiful) than Arwen.

On beauty and Tolkien *rubs temples* - Someone was always 'fairer' somehow, and then 'fairest' and 'wisest' and lordliest until the lord of the lordliest was unlordified and unlovliest. I mean, Feanor and Galadriel were unfriends forever (Unfinished Tales, I *roared* with laughter when I saw that, but I thought Facebook invented that word) - so it all gets pretty confusing.

After reading 100, billion pages about Feanor being the 'every-thing-est', only today, some 30 years later, I go and find all this stuff about Galadriel now being Feanor's rival -- as the 'everything-est' but in different areas.

I highly don't recommend getting stuck on the '-estest' or '-ighty-est' or best-est-test-est- *screams* because now Arwen is the 'fairest' but I thought it was Luthien. Then I saw Galadriel was that--so I got so confused, that I decided that Shelob was the fairest. It's not fair, really, that spiders should be so discriminated against. I'm sure Shelob would rank fairly high in the arachnid world's equivalent of 'Miss Universe'

*screams*

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

On beauty and Tolkien *rubs temples* - Someone was always 'fairer' somehow, and then 'fairest' and 'wisest' and lordliest until the lord of the lordliest was unlordified and unlovliest. I mean, Feanor and Galadriel were unfriends forever (Unfinished Tales, I *roared* with laughter when I saw that, but I thought Facebook invented that word) - so it all gets pretty confusing.

The superlatives are certainly there and made use of.

[Ivriniel]

Hi Belegorn and Celludur,

I don't want to get caught in any crossfire, but I was curious to understand what the 'core' of the debate is? I've read the stuff you've posted, and much of it makes sense.

But, some of it is Lobelia-Sackville-Bagginses's Lotho-lorien-dorenan-ish tra la la lally Goldberry cooks Lembas, but Lego-gimli sailed East over sea......

I'm pretty sure you're both on the same, basic page, that no-one disputes. That is, that whether you call the Peredhil Elves or Men or Meno-Level-Elves-o-Rama, Mandos catches 'em all when they get downed. And what seems to happen to the Peredhil (is that) their Choice allows their Spirit to be partitioned to either Fate of the Eldar or the Followers. That Mandos...thing....had very big halls and some folk turned left at the Junction that read "Firstborn" and others had to stand in the other immigration queue that read "The Followers--Stand here and wait to be called at the End of Time"

What makes an "Elf" an "Elf" and a "Man" a "Man"? When the genomes are all mixed up? The Half Elf is both-and-neither, I've always said. The body of Arwen, bearing Celebrian's parenthood, has more Elf than Man. I'm sure she looked very Elf-y but I'm sure she still might have grown a beard because she had some human blood.

Wait, I mean, that her children were Half Orcs if she married Shelob's Ungoliantified Unlight, web, thing, whatsit, that Morgoth was a bit weirded out about when The Silmarils ate Morgoth's big toe....

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Hi Belegorn and Celludur,

I don't want to get caught in any crossfire, but I was curious to understand what the 'core' of the debate is? I've read the stuff you've posted, and much of it makes sense.

But, some of it is Lobelia-Sackville-Bagginses's Lotho-lorien-dorenan-ish tra la la lally Goldberry cooks Lembas, but Lego-gimli sailed East over sea......

I'm pretty sure you're both on the same, basic page, that no-one disputes. That is, that whether you call the Peredhil Elves or Men or Meno-Level-Elves-o-Rama, Mandos catches 'em all when they get downed. And what seems to happen to the Peredhil (is that) their Choice allows their Spirit to be partitioned to either Fate of the Eldar or the Followers. That Mandos...thing....had very big halls and some folk turned left at the Junction that read "Firstborn" and others had to stand in the other immigration queue that read "The Followers--Stand here and wait to be called at the End of Time"

What makes an "Elf" an "Elf" and a "Man" a "Man"? When the genomes are all mixed up? The Half Elf is both-and-neither, I've always said. The body of Arwen, bearing Celebrian's parenthood, has more Elf than Man. I'm sure she looked very Elf-y but I'm sure she still might have grown a beard because she had some human blood.

Wait, I mean, that her children were Half Orcs if she married Shelob's Ungoliantified Unlight, web, thing, whatsit, that Morgoth was a bit weirded out about when The Silmarils ate Morgoth's big toe....

Belegorn will have to answer for himself why he thinks the matter is important.

As for it's not just a question of semantics to decide whether Elrond or Galadriel are more powerful. It's something, which runs through Tolkien's entire work. The Half-elven are neither elves nor men, but in reality a mixture of both. The mixed heritage they have leaves them with qualities unique to them and them alone.

For instance the Half-elven do not grow beards until very, very late in life like elves.
The Half-elven even as diluted as Aragorn have the ability to use 'magic' men do not.
At the same time even as Elvish Half-Elven as the Sons of Elrond are afraid of the shades of men, which Legolas is not.
The Half-elven even in the case of Elwing( who is 3/4 Elf/Maiar) grow up and have children much quicker.

There is a very real difference uniqueness to the Half-Elven, whether mortal or immortal which does not fit either Men or Elves.

This is before we get into how Tolkien always keeps the Elves separate from the Half-Elven in terms of language.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

For instance the Half-elven do not grow beards until very, very late in life like elves.

Please provide a direct quote from Tolkien. Which Half-elf grew a beard in the third age of their lives, or, better yet, which Half-elf even reached the third stage of life like Cirdan? Did Tolkien ever talk about Half-elven hairiness?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

The Half-elven even as diluted as Aragorn have the ability to use 'magic' men do not.

Aragorn possessed healing ability, not "magic" ability. This has to do with what Ioreth said: "The hands of the King are the hands of a healer, and so shall the rightful king be known." We discussed this in another thread wherein there is a direct tie to historical English (and French) kings and queens who were believed to have healing ability based on their god-given right to the throne.

There is no basis to say that "Half-elven" blood is a prerequisite for healing, nor was it stated that Aragorn could perform magic. Again, on the Paths of the Dead Aragorn demanding the spirits to fulfill their vow has more to do with Aragorn being the rightful king and wielding the appropriate sword of Isildur. For instance, Elrond, even though he was Half-elven, could not wield Narsil/Anduril and command the dead.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

At the same time even as Elvish Half-Elven as the Sons of Elrond are afraid of the shades of men, which Legolas is not.

Again, please provide a direct quote that this is the case. The words never came out of Elrond's son's mouths, nor did Tolkien imply it. Legolas' fearlessness is contrasted to Gimli's fear. There is no mention of Elrohir or Elladan in that sequence.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

The Half-elven even in the case of Elwing( who is 3/4 Elf/Maiar) grow up and have children much quicker.

Quicker than whom? Are there Half-elven maturation charts you wish to share?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

There is a very real difference uniqueness to the Half-Elven, whether mortal or immortal which does not fit either Men or Elves.

This is before we get into how Tolkien always keeps the Elves separate from the Half-Elven in terms of language.

Not on the mortal side. Elros is described as Half-elven, but his descendants are not because they do not have the choice. Only those who must make the choice between Elf and Man are given that title. Just like Aragorn and Arwen's children would never be called Half-elven because Arwen had already renounced her elvishness.

Silly semantics aside, the term "Half-elf" is really is more a family title or honorific than a genomic designation, particularly once a choice as to which race is made: you are that race irrevocably; hence Eärendil chose to be an Elf (at the behest of Elwing, who also made the choice to be Elvish and are thereafter referred to as such), Elros was a mortal man, and Arwen was a mortal woman.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Please provide a direct quote from Tolkien. Which Half-elf grew a beard in the third age of their lives, or, better yet, which Half-elf even reached the third stage of life like Cirdan? Did Tolkien ever talk about Half-elven hairiness?

"In a note written in December 1972 or later, and among the last writings of my father's on the subject of Middle-earth, there is a discussion of the Elvish strain in Men, as to its being observable in the beardlessness of those who were so descended (it was a characteristic of all Elves to be beardless); and it is here noted in connection with the princely house of Dol Amroth that "this line had a special Elvish strain, according to its own legends" (with a reference to the speeches between Legolas and Imrahil in The Return of the King V 9, cited above)."-UT

You will find that Tolkien wrote a lot about details some might consider insignificant.

Aragorn possessed healing ability, not "magic" ability. This has to do with what Ioreth said: "The hands of the King are the hands of a healer, and so shall the rightful king be known." We discussed this in another thread wherein there is a direct tie to historical English (and French) kings and queens who were believed to have healing ability based on their god-given right to the throne.

There is no basis to say that "Half-elven" blood is a prerequisite for healing, nor was it stated that Aragorn could perform magic. Again, on the Paths of the Dead Aragorn demanding the spirits to fulfill their vow has more to do with Aragorn being the rightful king and wielding the appropriate sword of Isildur. For instance, Elrond, even though he was Half-elven, could not wield Narsil/Anduril and command the dead.

I know the links to the historical Kings being able to heal, but this goes back to the Kings being put their by God.

However, in LOTR the healing that Aragorn does is a mixture of science, hypnotism and 'magic'. Aragorn as a Child of Luthien certainly possessed 'magic' as did the other descendants of Elros.

Anyway, a difference in the use of 'magic' in this story is that it is not to be come by by 'lore' or spells; but is in an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as such.
-Letter 155

There you have it above. 'Magic' was not something that Men could posses.

Aragorn's 'healing'might be regarded as 'magical', or at least ablend of magic with pharmacy and 'hypnotic' processes. But it is (in theory) reported by hobbits who have very little notions of philosophy and science;while A. is not a pure 'Man', but at long remove one of the 'children of Luthien'.
-Letter 155

So we can see 'magic' was involved (along with other things) in Aragorn's healing and this comes from his divine heritage.

Again, please provide a direct quote that this is the case. The words never came out of Elrond's son's mouths, nor did Tolkien imply it. Legolas' fearlessness is contrasted to Gimli's fear. There is no mention of Elrohir or Elladan in that sequence.

Actually there is. Only Legolas remained without fear out of the company.

The company halted, and there was not a heart among them that did not quail, unless it were the heart of Legolas of the Elves, for whom the ghosts of Men have no terror.-LOTR

Legolas alone amongst the company had no fear, because he was a pure elf.

Quicker than whom? Are there Half-elven maturation charts you wish to share?

Yes there are. Have you not looked at the dates, that Earendil, Elwing etc conceive and have children? Now compare that with the elves, who usually only reached maturity at 50. All

Not on the mortal side. Elros is described as Half-elven, but his descendants are not because they do not have the choice. Only those who must make the choice between Elf and Man are given that title. Just like Aragorn and Arwen's children would never be called Half-elven because Arwen had already renounced her elvishness.

Not true, because IF the case of Imrazor and Mithrellas is true then there child would be Half-elven and never given a choice. There is no record of Dior having a choice, but he was the first of the Peredhil.

Silly semantics aside, the term "Half-elf" is really is more a family title or honorific than a genomic designation, particularly once a choice as to which race is made: you are that race irrevocably; hence Eärendil chose to be an Elf (at the behest of Elwing, who also made the choice to be Elvish and are thereafter referred to as such), Elros was a mortal man, and Arwen was a mortal woman.

Again they Half-Elven are not choosing what race they are, because they remain Half-Elven. Nothing changed in Elrond and Elros after they made their choices. Their bodies and abilities remained the same.

Elros was granted a peculiar longevity, and it is said here that he and his brother Elrond were not differently endowed in the physical potential of life, but that since Elros elected to remain among the kindred of Men he retained the chief characteristic of Men as opposed to the Quendi: the "seeking elsewhither," as the Eldar called it, the "weariness" or desire to depart from the world.

Half-elf is not just a family term, but a description of what he is. Elrond is never referred to as an Elf Lord and either are his sons, but instead they are compared to Elf Lords. Elrond is even left as an Elf-Friend in the Hobbit.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

"In a note written in December 1972 or later, and among the last writings of my father's on the subject of Middle-earth, there is a discussion of the Elvish strain in Men, as to its being observable in the beardlessness of those who were so descended (it was a characteristic of all Elves to be beardless); and it is here noted in connection with the princely house of Dol Amroth that "this line had a special Elvish strain, according to its own legends" (with a reference to the speeches between Legolas and Imrahil in The Return of the King V 9, cited above)."-UT

You will find that Tolkien wrote a lot about details some might consider insignificant.

This is not specific to the Half-elven, and could include any number of Numenoreans related, however indirectly, to Elros (as it was to heirs of Dol-Amroth). You made this statement:

For instance the Half-elven do not grow beards until very, very late in life like elves.

Where is that statement? It is not in the quote you provided, therefore, you made it up.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I know the links to the historical Kings being able to heal, but this goes back to the Kings being put their by God.

However, in LOTR the healing that Aragorn does is a mixture of science, hypnotism and 'magic'. Aragorn as a Child of Luthien certainly possessed 'magic' as did the other descendants of Elros.

Anyway, a difference in the use of 'magic' in this story is that it is not to be come by by 'lore' or spells; but is in an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as such.
-Letter 155

There you have it above. 'Magic' was not something that Men could posses.

Aragorn's 'healing'might be regarded as 'magical', or at least ablend of magic with pharmacy and 'hypnotic' processes. But it is (in theory) reported by hobbits who have very little notions of philosophy and science;while A. is not a pure 'Man', but at long remove one of the 'children of Luthien'.
-Letter 155

So we can see 'magic' was involved (along with other things) in Aragorn's healing and this comes from his divine heritage.

Meh, I'll give you that one. Good research. However, Tolkien equivocates and uses such words as "might" be regarded as magical, and "in theory" reported by unscientific hobbits. Tolkien is equally ambiguous regarding "magical" properties supposedly unattainable in Men. For instance, he also states the Mouth of Sauron learned "great sorcery" under the tutelage of Sauron. There is no equivocation from Tolkien that he was unable to perform the Dark Arts; in fact, to say MoS learned "great sorcery" clearly shows he wasn't playing at parlor tricks.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Yes there are. Have you not looked at the dates, that Earendil, Elwing etc conceive and have children? Now compare that with the elves, who usually only reached maturity at 50. All

Even you use the word "usually". There are only generalizations that cannot be applied across the board, particularly in times of terrific war and strife when customs bend to reality. Earendil and Elwing lived in a time of great upheaval, and they were both 29 when Elros and Elrond were born -- I don't see that as being an immature age, do you? And the Elvish mother Idril didn't bicker about customs, did she? Besides, mortals can and have given it a go regarding childbirth as soon as puberty hits at 11 or 12.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Not true, because IF the case of Imrazor and Mithrellas is true then there child would be Half-elven and never given a choice. There is no record of Dior having a choice, but he was the first of the Peredhil.

Not true? Ummm...sorry, we must be reading a different book. Elros' descendants were not Half-elven, and neither were Aragorn's. The direct line of Earendil and Elwing were given the choice (Given that Luthien made a choice of mortality, it seems likely that Dior might also have that gift, but he died young), and once a choice was made, like in Arwen's case, the offspring are no longer Half-elven, but mortal and unable to make a choice. Obviously, the offspring of Imrazor and Mithrellas were mortal without benefit of the Half-elven choice, just as Elros offspring were mortal and not "Half-elven". Again, the term is titular to the line of Earendil until a choice of mortality is made.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Again they Half-Elven are not choosing what race they are, because they remain Half-Elven. Nothing changed in Elrond and Elros after they made their choices. Their bodies and abilities remained the same.

Did they remain the same? I would suggest they did not remain the same, or at least Elros didn't. Elros could no longer produce Half-elven children, while Elrond could. Obviously, Eru the Galactic Geneticist fiddled with their chromosomes. Earendil and Elwing chose to be Elves, per Tolkien, just as Elrond did.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Half-elf is not just a family term, but a description of what he is. Elrond is never referred to as an Elf Lord and either are his sons, but instead they are compared to Elf Lords. Elrond is even left as an Elf-Friend in the Hobbit.

Is Elrond immortal (having lived over 6500 years)? Check. Does he possess an Elven Ring? Check. Is he the master over all the Elves (including Glorfindel) at Rivendell? Check. Can he command the waters at the Ford of Bruinen? Check. Does he leave for the Undying Lands at the end of the story? Check. Is he, per Tolkien, parted from his daughter Arwen, who chose to be mortal, until the end of time? Check.

If it quacks like a duck, it is not a semantic piece of wood. And please don't refer to The Hobbit for canonical references.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Hi Belegorn and Celludur,

I don't want to get caught in any crossfire, but I was curious to understand what the 'core' of the debate is?

There are several things.

(1) Is Elrond, or any of the Peredhel, Elves or not due to their title "Half-elven".

(2) Is Glorfindel the strongest Elf in M-E, especially since he is reborn.

(3) Did Sauron make a serious attempt to invade Rivendell.

[Mithalwen]

I don't see why Dior would get a choice. He was born to two mortals ans so woud have been mortal. Like the offspring of Elros. He married an elf of course and their children were therefore halfelven, unless an unrecorded exception was made he would have shared the doom of men. However I would class Elrond as an elf comparable to the children of a Japanese friend who have an English father. Half and half by ethnicity but fully British by nationality, though they had the option of taking Japanese nationality up to age 18.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I don't see why Dior would get a choice. He was born to two mortals ans so woud have been mortal. Like the offspring of Elros. He married an elf of course and their children were therefore halfelven, unless an unrecorded exception was made he would have shared the doom of men. However I would class Elrond as an elf comparable to the children of a Japanese friend who have an English father. Half and half by ethnicity but fully British by nationality, though they had the option of taking Japanese nationality up to age 18.

Dior getting a choice is wishful thinking on my part, but not without a little bit to be hopeful for. Dior was immersed in the Elvish lifestyle was married to an Elf and ruled over an Elvish kingdom. He also choice to marry an Elf before he knew the consequences of his actions. It seems very harsh to me that the Valar would not give him a choice, but nothing in the text suggest they did.

Perhaps that's a better analogy, but your friend in question will always have some of the traits associated typically with Japanese ethnicity. Whatever, his or her nationality she will remain of mixed heritage.

[Mithalwen]

I didn't say otherwise. In fact I explicitly stated they had dual ethnicity but they have full rights and obligations if citizenship. Similarly while Tolkien states that the half elven had physical traits of both races, it doesn't mean that Elrond and Elros having made their choice cannot be regarded as part of their chosen people.

I agree it is a bit harsh on Dior given he was raised Elvish but the evidence of. His and Elwing's swift maturity rather points at him being regarded as mortal.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I don't see why Dior would get a choice. He was born to two mortals ans so woud have been mortal. Like the offspring of Elros. He married an elf of course and their children were therefore halfelven, unless an unrecorded exception was made he would have shared the doom of men. However I would class Elrond as an elf comparable to the children of a Japanese friend who have an English father. Half and half by ethnicity but fully British by nationality, though they had the option of taking Japanese nationality up to age 18.

I've always thought this way about Dior, also.

[edit]Coz he was born after a resurrection. This all happened before the Choice of the Peredhil, and Luthien's exception was a Mandos decree-one-off, for her heroism and to acknowledge, I've always thought, great love of Beren and Luthien. I do love that story.

I forgot to add, in post prior "strength" "weapon-mastery" "emotional fortitude" omg, etc, I have a TOTAL headache[/edit]

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

There are several things.

(1) Is Elrond, or any of the Peredhel, Elves or not due to their title "Half-elven".

(2) Is Glorfindel the strongest Elf in M-E, especially since he is reborn.

(3) Did Sauron make a serious attempt to invade Rivendell.

I'm gunna add some info. Now, remember bois/guyz/woman/glaz - it's really all just tralla Lalla Feanor unfriended Galad-goliant because Unlight is Light with an 'un' and Tolkien loved Un-lordifying-lally lembo lembas and doin' funny things with words.....he was a word smith, unlike the Gwaith-i-Mirdain, who were just naughty Elves workin' with the resident bad boi, Annatar, and Tolkien loved 'un' doing words with an 'un'

Okay:

to 1:

1. Aren't they just the Pereldar or Peredhil? Elf blended with Man - and so, I've always said, a synergy race "both and neither", and so, at times beyond either, whilst also being less than either - oh my god, I'm about to break into song! Would we have called Luthien a 'man'? Coz she died a mortal life? Um--if she had a beard, I'd have thought about it. Not sure she came back with one when those interfering busy bodies, the Valar, shunted her and Beren back to life. She, no doubt, still looked "elfy" (well actually, she was part Maia, yeah ), but Mandos gave her another Passport, for the Edain Immigration cue, so that she could hang out with Beren in the Halls til the end of days? This all says to me that there were 'rules' about the Spirit and where it went, that, somehow, were not *intrinsically* linked to genes/body/look. But to something 'else' and what that 'else' actually is, I have no *bleep* idea. But--does that make Luthien a 'Man'? Hmm, not sure we have a best-fit word for what happened to her. I think I'd still call her 'of Elvenkind'

2. About Glorfindel the reborn, who slew a Balrog (shunting aside the reincarnation stuff--I did read the materials, and know a little about the Glorfindel debate. Reborn, boated out of Numenor and all that was interesting to read). Is he uber-Elrond and uber-Galadriel, assuming he was the 'same' being?

I don't think being reborn would, necessarily, imply he is the greatest. I'm not sure of his power quotient, whatever that means, but he wasn't afraid of the nine, and he didn't get an Elven Ring. Does that mean he was lesser in the stature of 'power' or more that he was just less of a noble line? Who knows.

Unfortunately, though, Tolkien had a terrible habbit, um I mean hobbit, woops, habit of (as I said in jest), of 'lordifying bestest, then unbesting the lord, who was then unlordified and undefeatedly bestified by the new VFF, BFF or Rugby League sports hero, who was the Lorewisest but dumbest. Which all means: I have a headache here. *rubs temples* *screams*

But, if I had to pin one of the "greatest-est-esty-estest-great-not-un-grate, woops ingrate, no, I mean, un-great-ified, I'd go for Feanor, and Galadriel, first [who was unfriends forever with Feanor because they invented Facebook]. Then, Enerdhil that jeweller about the Elessar making (he was best-est at jewell smithery, assuming he ever lived), then Fingolfin, Beren, Luthien - wait, now I do have a headache.

3. On Three. I guess so. He pressed in to surround Imladris didn't he?

[Ivriniel]

Forgot Celebrimbor. He was pretty lore-wise. Very Aule-ish he was....which brings me to some terms to breakdown 'power' and how Tolkien saw it.

When he described Feanor, he refers to Lore, stature, body-heath/athleticism, mind. (He missed personality. Feanor had a very unfortunate personality). When he describes Galadriel (materials about her are fresh in my mind, after recent review, so sorry if I'm being Galadriel-o-centric)--Tolkien refers to her as gifted, athletically and mentally, and as Feanor's equivalent in best-est-tra-la-la-lally-iests. But her assets were in other domains of mind, and so, *qualitatively* (not *quantitatively*) distinct.

Here then, is where it's very hard to say and respond to power questions.