Denethor vs. Aragorn

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

It's like talking to a wall. I agree with Arvedui. I never said Gondor was right, I said that it was what they believed to be true and held to it. Which is why it did not matter that he brought up Elendil because they already told him the realm was relinquished to Meneldil. The fact remains, in Gondor his argument did not hold because they believed, "the crown and royalty of Gondor belongs soley to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur RELINQUISHED this realm".

Read what actually happens. They don't reject Arvedui's second argument, but they just choose someone else.

You understand that as long as they have Elendil as the first king of Gondor then they cannot say it was relinquished to just to Meneldil's heirs. They know this and that's why they have no come back.

That's why Aragorn's claim is based on being the heir of Elendil.

'Do you wish for the House of Elendil to return to the Land of Gondor?'

'Already you have raised the banner of the Kings and displayed the banner of Elendil's House.'

There is a subtle difference and it is something the Council could never argue against.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Read what actually happens. They don't reject Arvedui's second argument, but they just choose someone else.

You understand that as long as they have Elendil as the first king of Gondor then they cannot say it was relinquished to just to Meneldil's heirs. They know this and that's why they have no come back.

That's why Aragorn's claim is based on being the heir of Elendil.

'Do you wish for the House of Elendil to return to the Land of Gondor?'

'Already you have raised the banner of the Kings and displayed the banner of Elendil's House.'

There is a subtle difference and it is something the Council could never argue against.

Elendil's two sons are Isildur and Anárion. Isildur is the elder line. They are of the opinion, in Gondor, that the elder line gave up the South Kingdom "the crown and royalty of Gondor belongs soley to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur RELINQUISHED this realm". If Isildur is the rightful King but relinquishes the royalty of Gondor, then to the nobles of Gondor, it falls on Anárion and his descendants in the South. Certainly they are not rejecting Elendil because in either case they are still choosing a direct descendent in the paternal line from Elendil, in this case from Anárion since they think the other line [Isildur's] "RELINQUISHED this realm". They gave no answer because they were not hearing him. They already gave him their reasons why he could not be King and he could invoke Elendil all he wanted, because to them, the rule had been relinquished to the descendants of Elendil's second son.

In note #10 to The Disaster of the Gladden Fields:

"Meneldil was the nephew of Isildur, son of Isildur's younger brother Anárion, slain in the siege of Barad-dûr. Isildur had established Meneldil as King of Gondor. He was a man of courtesy, but farseeing, and he did not reveal his thoughts. He was in fact well-pleased by the departure of Isildur and his sons, and hoped that affairs in the North would keep them long occupied."

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Elendil's two sons are Isildur and Anárion. Isildur is the elder line. They are of the opinion, in Gondor, that the elder line gave up the South Kingdom "the crown and royalty of Gondor belongs soley to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur RELINQUISHED this realm". If Isildur is the rightful King but relinquishes the royalty of Gondor, then to the nobles of Gondor, it falls on Anárion and his descendants in the South. Certainly they are not rejecting Elendil because in either case they are still choosing a direct descendent in the paternal line from Elendil, in this case from Anárion since they think the other line [Isildur's] "RELINQUISHED this realm". They gave no answer because they were not hearing him. They already gave him their reasons why he could not be King and he could invoke Elendil all he wanted, because to them, the rule had been relinquished to the descendants of Elendil's second son.

Which was well and good while other male-line descendents of Anárion still existed, namely Eärnil and his son Eärnur. But who is the next-in-line after them when, as the case happened, their line failed?

This is where the distinction between descendents of Elendil and descendents of Isildur becomes relevant--and, if I may interpolate, what cellurdur has been saying: that even if the Heirs of Isildur as the Heirs of Isildur were held to have relinquished the realm, they were still the next-in-line after all the male-line descendents of Anárion, because Isildur was Anárion's brother (which is but another way of saying he was Elendil's son).

In other words, Pelendur's council could make the claim in Arvedui's day that the claims of Isildur's line were irrelevant as long as male-line descendents of Anárion persisted, which they did at that time. Even with this precedent established, however, they did not address--nor, it seems, did they wish to address--the question of what would happen if Anárion's line became extinct, as happened two generations later. Regardless of Isildur's "abdication," the fact remains that both Isildur and Anárion were reckoned Kings of Gondor under Elendil and in virtue of being Elendil's son.

One might even say that the "dual kingship" of Isildur's day came to an end when he went north and did not leave one of his sons as co-king with Meneldil--but, to simplify things, let us imagine that Meneldil had died with no sons: who would have been the next King of Gondor? The "other claim" of having an heir of Isildur would still be null and void, but by virtue of Meneldil having no sons, his heir in this case would be his nephew, thus merging the crown back into the line of Isildur.

This is the distinction between "Heir of Isildur" and "Heir of Elendil." It is easy enough to believe that Denethor would not have accepted it, but it remains the basis of the claim Aragorn DID make, one that, given what happened, Faramir and his council did de facto accept.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Which was well and good while other male-line descendents of Anárion still existed, namely Eärnil and his son Eärnur. But who is the next-in-line after them when, as the case happened, their line failed?

This is where the distinction between descendents of Elendil and descendents of Isildur becomes relevant--and, if I may interpolate, what cellurdur has been saying: that even if the Heirs of Isildur as the Heirs of Isildur were held to have relinquished the realm, they were still the next-in-line after all the male-line descendents of Anárion, because Isildur was Anárion's brother (which is but another way of saying he was Elendil's son).

In other words, Pelendur's council could make the claim in Arvedui's day that the claims of Isildur's line were irrelevant as long as male-line descendents of Anárion persisted, which they did at that time. Even with this precedent established, however, they did not address--nor, it seems, did they wish to address--the question of what would happen if Anárion's line became extinct, as happened two generations later. Regardless of Isildur's "abdication," the fact remains that both Isildur and Anárion were reckoned Kings of Gondor under Elendil and in virtue of being Elendil's son.

One might even say that the "dual kingship" of Isildur's day came to an end when he went north and did not leave one of his sons as co-king with Meneldil--but, to simplify things, let us imagine that Meneldil had died with no sons: who would have been the next King of Gondor? The "other claim" of having an heir of Isildur would still be null and void, but by virtue of Meneldil having no sons, his heir in this case would be his nephew, thus merging the crown back into the line of Isildur.

This is the distinction between "Heir of Isildur" and "Heir of Elendil." It is easy enough to believe that Denethor would not have accepted it, but it remains the basis of the claim Aragorn DID make, one that, given what happened, Faramir and his council did de facto accept.

Thanks for putting forward the idea much better than I did.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Thanks for putting forward the idea much better than I did.

I'm not sure he's actually echoing you. He claimed to be interpolating so that in itself would be a marker that he was not. You two are actually not saying the same thing.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I'm not sure he's actually echoing you. He claimed to be interpolating so that in itself would be a marker that he was not. You two are actually not saying the same thing.

Please explain to me the difference, because I cannot see what it is?

[Sarumian]

I think we all have got the point and agreed with it. Therefore an argument on this tiny logical differences should be left over for personal messages.

On the matter. First of all, I cannot believe Aragorn would have waged a civil war. No way. In that case he, not Boromir, would've claimed the Ring. Secondly, he wouldn't necessary have made any claim right after the siege of Gondor to Denethor's utter surprise. Captains of the West could have marched on the Gates of Morannon even without Denethor's support: they did not need huge numbers.

Upon return to Gondor, Aragorn would have had an overwhelming support of the population and of the ruling elite. Denethor would have been unable to deny that Aragorn had made the thing he (Denethor) himself had failed to achieve.

Therefore, in the situation when Aragorn's

lordship and dignity

was evident, the formalities could have been settled in the way that other respected Downers have already demonstrated. Think, that the Council would have voted unanimously, and Denethor would have abstained but would have passed the sceptre either to Aragorn or to his own sun for further decision. I believe that in that case Aragorn would have created him a Prince of Ithilien, while Faramir would have become a new Stewart and Denethor's heir. Such a honour could have pleased the old man and probably would have kept him from committing suicide.

I also believe, Denethor would not have made any treachery - he was above such things.

God, such much of the third conditional! Hope, I did it correct

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I cannot see what it is?

I know.

Originally Posted by Sarumian

I cannot believe Aragorn would have waged a civil war

I agree. It would seem totally out of place in this context anyway even with the history between Aragorn and Denethor, I do not think it was so bad as to result in a Civil War. Denethor was passionate but he did care about Gondor.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Which was well and good while other male-line descendents of Anárion still existed, namely Eärnil and his son Eärnur. But who is the next-in-line after them when, as the case happened, their line failed?

That is a problem, also the one they made for themselves anyway in twisting the way things should have been to what they should not have been. The Kingdoms should have been united, the Dúnedain would be strong and not diminished. In-fighting in both kingdoms, especially in the North, crippled them. The Witch-king took advantage of them in the North, and constant assaults in the South as they waned resulted in loss of Dúnedain and of territory.

It makes sense from the point of greed that the ones in line who could not hold the throne found a way to get it while those who should have it are still alive. In the end, some Dúnedain still held fast to the belief that it did not matter, even if the line of the one died while the other was still alive, only the line of Meneldil would be accepted. As we see with Denethor who though knowing of the preservation of the one line and the extinction of the other, still held onto the rule.

"I am a Steward of the House of Anárion. I will not step down to be the dotard chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity." [RotK, ch. 7, p. 142]

Whether both lines were still intact the rule should not have been there, that the one line had renounced the crown of the South Kingdom, but as it was alas, it was. Denethor also seems to have channeled Meneldur in his holding onto the belief that extinct line or not with the other intact, it won't matter, only Meneldur's descendants will be allowed to hold the crown.