Arwen vs. Galadriel

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Dior was half elven by ethnicity. It doesn't follow that he wasn't mortal. It isn't fully explained.I do buy the Imrazor story. Also written by Tolkien and referenced by him in letters and with the internal evidence of Legolas' comments. You are of course entitled to believe what you want but it doesn't make it true. Rather more of a leap than regarding the use of Peredhel as a description of ethnicity pretty much an Epessë rather than an indication that he was completely separate from his chosen people. I think it is only mentioned because the pending choice of his children keep the issue alive and as a nod to his extraordinary lineage. I really can't see the problem. Elrond is half elven by bloodbut he shares fully in the fate of Elves ditto Elros but that of men.

I never said that it followed that Dior was immortal. I give quite the opposite impression. I say I like to think he would be given a choice, because there had yet to be any ruling. When Earendil turns up they are undecided if he is a mortal Man or one of the Noldor. It's only at this point that Manwe converses (internally) with Eru and comes to this ruling. It's for this reason that I like to hold out hope that no decision had yet to be made and Dior would get his choice.

As for the case of Dol Amroth, Tolkien left us with two distinct versions of what happened. Both are stories told in Middle Earth much like the Elessar. There is the story of Mithrellas and then there is the other account where they are related to Elendil. Christopher Tolkien does not believe the two are compatible, without trying to force things to hard and we are left to accept, which story we think more believable. I favour their relation to Elendil for a number of reasons.

Sharing fully in the fate of an Elf does not make you one and nor does sharing fully in the fate of Men. The example I used prior is the case of Luthien. Luthien forever remained an Elf, even though she was mortal.

Dior himself used the term and learnt both languages, because it is what he was.

'Dior their son it is said, spoke both tongues: his father's and his mother's the Sindarin of Doriath. For he said: 'I am the first of the Peredhil (halfelve); but I am also the heir of King Elwe, the Eluchil.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I never said that it followed that Dior was immortal. I give quite the opposite impression. I say I like to think he would be given a choice, because there had yet to be any ruling. When Earendil turns up they are undecided if he is a mortal Man or one of the Noldor. It's only at this point that Manwe converses (internally) with Eru and comes to this ruling. It's for this reason that I like to hold out hope that no decision had yet to be made and Dior would get his choice.

This would place Dior as about fifty years of age, or thereabouts, with minimum-time assumptions. I'm not sure if Elwing was younger or older than Elured and Elurin. And I'm rusty on measures of quanties (years) between Elu's slaying, Dior's ascension and the sack of Mengroth. And assuming that Elwing was about 20-25 when she and Earendil left Beleriand on Vingilot. I have no real idea....really. Is your real idea, a 'really', or a 'really' or--did I mention 'really'? I'm not sure, really. As in--really--I'm not sure about much at all.....really....truly....

Meaning--a retrofitted un-mortal-ified Dior--(for the Dior in the alternative universe that actually lived), is getting long-shot ish.

As for the case of Dol Amroth, Tolkien left us with two distinct versions of what happened. Both are stories told in Middle Earth much like the Elessar. There is the story of Mithrellas and then there is the other account where they are related to Elendil. Christopher Tolkien does not believe the two are compatible, without trying to force things to hard and we are left to accept, which story we think more believable. I favour their relation to Elendil for a number of reasons.

Imrahil. Beardless. Over 20 generations later. In-text citations, LotR referring to this, (Legolas). Elf-y blood. Somewhere, don't you think. And obviously more than Elendil's line, recalling that by the time Elendil or one of his brood got the hots for an Imrahil distant ancestor, whoz-its, he wasn't very Elfy anymore. Beards anyone on the men of Elendil's line (I'm not sure on that item)? This is one of the reasons I favour the Imrazor/Mithrellas citation.

[Ivriniel]

By the way, Dior Eluchil was often referred to as Aranel, "The Noble Elf", not "Like a Noble Elf" or "Resembling a Noble Elf" or "Having Half the Appearance of a Noble Elf Half the Time".

"....like less than half of you half-[elves half] as much as you deserve..."