Arwen vs. Galadriel

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I am confused about your argument here. You acknowledge that Earendil and Elwing had children before they were 30 and then you claim there is no evidence that their maturity rate was quicker than elves. Elves only reach full maturity and the age of majority at 50. The Half-elven age like Men do at the early stage as can be seen by the kids they had at a very young age relative to elves. Secondly we know that their aging then slows down, because Elrond and Elros have exactly the same potential in life. Half-elves whether mortal or immortal don't age as we call it nor do they get diseases.

"Full maturity" does not mean they cannot bear children previous to 50. The age of majority in the U.S. can be either 18 or 21 (depending on whether you count voting or drinking ), and yet babies are born to girls no older than 12. The age of 50 is not set in stone like some towering monolith, so don't take everything so literally. Tolkien didn't, obviously, particularly in the case of Earendil and Elwing, who had to get married and have children before Tuor and Idril sailed off. The story required it.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Elrond did have a title that indicated Lordship. He was Lord of Rivendell. It's true he could claim the Kingship of the Sindar, but that seems to be something he never wanted to. With the death of Gil-galad there was nobody available to claim the High Kingship of the Noldor. Galadriel and Elrond, being either female or from the maternal line, were ineligible to claim it. Only direct male descendants from a paternal line could claim the High Kingship.

That being said, there is more to the term Elf Lord, than just being a Lord of the elves. Elrond certainly was a Lord of Elves. The title seems to mean not only a literal Lord of elves, but also an elf with a certain power and heritage. Elrond qualifies for every category except being a full Elf.

I may be wrong, but I don't believe Tolkien ever referred to Elrond as the "Lord of Rivendell". The word Tolkien used was "Master", which has a different connotation altogether. As I said, it was a political thing.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Galadriel as I addressed earlier could not make the claim to be the Queen of the Noldor. The Noldor only accepted kings through the male line. After the death of Gil-galad there is a possibility that they could then have accepted Celebrimbor, but that was not meant to be as Mandos prophecised.

Galadriel did not even choose to be named Queen of her subjects in Lorien, like Thranduil and Oropher did in Eryn Lasgalen. At the point of the War of the Ring, Galadriel could have given herself any title she wished, given her power and authority, and not a soul would have argued. But she wisely remained "Lady" Galadriel, again, for political reasons.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

This is an interesting point and something I will have to look into, but I cannot at the moment. You may be right, but then the nickname could have been when Beren was not yet a Man.

Tolkien the Ambiguous strikes again.

[Mithalwen]

Oh I see, actually, Morth, Tolkien says in LaCE that Elves don't reach physical maturity until 50 and some not til twice that. He may have changed his ideas in different versions but if he didn't a 22 year old elf would be equivalent probably to a human child of eight or nine. Also I doubt Idril would have left Earendil had he not been properly grown up.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

"Full maturity" does not mean they cannot bear children previous to 50. The age of majority in the U.S. can be either 18 or 21 (depending on whether you count voting or drinking ), and yet babies are born to girls no older than 12. The age of 50 is not set in stone like some towering monolith, so don't take everything so literally. Tolkien didn't, obviously, particularly in the case of Earendil and Elwing, who had to get married and have children before Tuor and Idril sailed off. The story required it.

Sometimes it's worth dropping an argument when you find additional information. What exactly in Tolkien's work makes you thin he would have a responsible, intelligent mother like Idril have her '11 year old son' marry his '11 year old girlfriend'.

I may be wrong, but I don't believe Tolkien ever referred to Elrond as the "Lord of Rivendell". The word Tolkien used was "Master", which has a different connotation altogether. As I said, it was a political thing.

You are wrong. Elrond was referred to as the 'Lord of Rivendell.'

'He was Lord of Rivendell and might among both Elves and Men.'

Galadriel did not even choose to be named Queen of her subjects in Lorien, like Thranduil and Oropher did in Eryn Lasgalen. At the point of the War of the Ring, Galadriel could have given herself any title she wished, given her power and authority, and not a soul would have argued. But she wisely remained "Lady" Galadriel, again, for political reasons.

Yes she could have given herself the title of Queen of Lorien, but that was, because she and Celeborn did not consider Lorien their kingdom by right. Rather they considered themselves as guardians of the land after Amroth drowned.
If Galadriel had founded a land by herself she may have indeed called herself Queen.

Off topic, but Galadriel's decision to never crown herself speaks very well for her humility and reminds me of the Stewards of Gondor. Unlike the Stewards, I doubt there would be any resistance in such a great and might Lady as Galadriel claiming Queenship.

Tolkien the Ambiguous strikes again.

As for Aranel it appears it could just as easily mean 'King of Elves', which fits in very well with him being Thingol's heir the Eluchil and being the King of all the Sindar.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Sometimes it's worth dropping an argument when you find additional information. What exactly in Tolkien's work makes you thin he would have a responsible, intelligent mother like Idril have her '11 year old son' marry his '11 year old girlfriend'.

What in god's name are you talking about? Earendil and Elwing were born in 503, and they married in 525 when they were each 22, but did not have children until they were 29. Often in ancient and medieval cultures, a boy and girl were married, but do not consummate the marriage until some years later. Where did you come up with 11? Are you being insanely literal again?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

You are wrong. Elrond was referred to as the 'Lord of Rivendell.'

'He was Lord of Rivendell and might among both Elves and Men.'

Where is that quote? Is it in Lord of the Rings? If not, I question the validity.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

What in god's name are you talking about? Earendil and Elwing were born in 503, and they married in 525 when they were each 22, but did not have children until they were 29. Often in ancient and medieval cultures, a boy and girl were married, but do not consummate the marriage until some years later. Where did you come up with 11? Are you being insanely literal again?

It seems you really cannot keep track of arguments. So I will keep things very simple for you.

Elves don't reach physical maturity until at least 50 and for some around 100.
Elves usually have year long betrothals before getting married young sometime after they turn 50.
Earendil and Elwing at 22 would be akin to '11 year olds' at best if they aged like Elves. 22 was considered possibly too young for a Dunedain bride let alone at elf.
There are not going to be marriages for '11 year olds'.



It's simple argument so hopefully you can keep up.

Where is that quote? Is it in Lord of the Rings? If not, I question the validity.

Yes it is perhaps you should have a look at it more often before questioning someone else' validity.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

It seems you really cannot keep track of arguments. So I will keep things very simple for you.

Elves don't reach physical maturity until at least 50 and for some around 100.
Elves usually have year long betrothals before getting married young sometime after they turn 50.
Earendil and Elwing at 22 would be akin to '11 year olds' at best if they aged like Elves. 22 was considered possibly too young for a Dunedain bride let alone at elf.
There are not going to be marriages for '11 year olds'.

It's simple argument so hopefully you can keep up.

Yes it is perhaps you should have a look at it more often before questioning someone else' validity.

Oh, I can follow along just fine, sir and/or madam, and if you care to be rude, believe me, we can play that game as well.

So, what you are holding desperately onto in such an inanely literal fashion is LACE, an unfinished document written in both A and B succession at different times and which was supposedly translated by the mortal Aelfwine? Is that it? Christopher Tolkien was quite succinct regarding the essay:

"It is clear in any case that is presented as the work, not of one of the Eldar, but of a man..."

If you accept the conceit, how then can you accept that the text is completely reliable -- unfinished and heavily modified as it was?

The Earendil story is among Tolkien's oldest tales, and one nearest to completion and dearest to Tolkien himself. Do you think he rectified his time line in lieu of LACE? Documentation does not show this to be the case. Therefore, your entire rant is based on incomplete data that more than likely would have been rewritten after Tolkien abandoned the Aelfwine character altogether. But it never came to that, ergo, your assumptions are just that, merely assumptions and not the Gospel according to Saint John Ronald Reuel.

[Galin]

It seems you really cannot keep track of arguments. So I will keep things very simple for you. Elves don't reach physical maturity until at least 50 and for some around 100.

And I will attempt to dis-simplify this matter


This idea [from Laws And Customs] of 50 or for some 100 years for Elven physical maturity is not only [arguably] not Tolkien's only idea about this matter, it is arguably not his latest idea on the subject.

It might be his most 'in depth' version on paper, but I think Tolkien later abandoned it for a simpler idea.

[Galin]

Here's my fuller argument...

Morgoth's Ring provides 50 years, for some 100 years (as just noted), and while this has proved to be popular on the web, it's not the only idea Tolkien had in my opinion, nor even the latest idea he had. Other examples include:

'They' are the Númenóreans:

'Thus (as the Eldar) they grew at much the same rate as other Men, but when they had achieved 'full growth' then they aged, or 'wore out', very much more slowly.' Note 1, The Line of Elros, Unfinished Tales

Author's notes to NKE ('neter, kanat, enek'):

Note 1: 'C.E. ? netthi. C.E. tth > Q., T. tt; S. þþ > þ. nette meant 'girl approaching the adult' (in her 'teens': the growth of Elvish children after birth was little if at all slower than that of the children of Men). The Common Eldarin stem (wen-ed) wendé 'maiden' applied to all stages up to the fully adult (until marriage).' JRRT, from Vinyar Tengwar 47, texts generally dated 1967-70

This text is quite a bit later than Laws And Customs Among the Eldar (Morgoth's Ring), which generally dates to the late 1950s early 1960s.

Anyway these two texts appear [to me] to say that the Eldar grew at about the same rate as Men.

But even this is not the complete story, as there is another indication, from other texts published in Morgoth's Ring (still later 1950s however), that the Eldar, at least early in the history of Middle-earth and in Aman, matured much slower than 50 to 100 years -- and actually the notion seems to be that it took roughly 3,000 years for an Elf-child to become an adult! and possibly (based on a further text written at this time called Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth) in Middle-earth (not in Aman) this rate dwindled*, meaning that it took less time to grow to be an adult in Middle-earth as time passed, suggesting Elven children reached maturity faster and faster until at least Finrod's conversation with Andreth.

This idea is wound up with possible drastic changes in the internal chronology, as well as the notion of 144 Sun Years being equal to 1 Valian Year (not roughly 10 Sun Years being equal to 1 Valian Year, as formerly).


It might be 'remotely' possible that all these ideas could be parts of the same idea, the notion being: a rate of growth that dwindled in Middle-earth as time passed, if the rate rather drastically altered in Middle-earth over time that is: thus 3,000 or so years very early on (and in Aman), but after time the Elves matured faster and faster, and at some point this rate reduced to 50 or 100 years, perhaps at the time of Finrod's conversation with Andreth* -- and even later, the Eldar ultimately grew at much the same rate as Men.

I think that's much less likely than Tolkien simply changing his mind however, as 3,000-ish to about the same rate as Men is quite the change internally! It was probably easier to keep track of chronology if Elves simply matured at the same rate as Men, but that's a total guess as to why Tolkien seems to have later headed that way.

_______________

*'This I can well believe,' said Finrod: 'That your bodies suffer in some measure the malice of Melkor. For you live in Arda Marred, as do we, and all the matter of Arda is tainted by him, before ye or we came forth and drew our hroar and their sustenance therefrom: all save only Aman before he came there. For know it is not otherwise with the Quendi themselves: their health and stature is diminished. Already those of us who dwell in Middle-earth, and even we who have returned to it, find that the change* [*the word change was an emendation to the typescript B (only); the manuscript has growth -- footnote by CJRT] of their bodies is swifter than in the beginning. And that, I judge, must forebode that they will prove less strong to last than they were designed to be, though this may not be clearly revealed for many long years.'

Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth (and see Author's note 7 on the Commentary)

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galin

And I will attempt to dis-simplify this matter


This idea [from Laws And Customs] of 50 or for some 100 years for Elven physical maturity is not only [arguably] not Tolkien's only idea about this matter, it is arguably not his latest idea on the subject.

It might be his most 'in depth' version on paper, but I think Tolkien later abandoned it for a simpler idea.

Then let me once more attempt to re-simplify the matter. The idea of Men growing slower than Elves is not just found in Laws and Customs.

The Children of Hurin, which is actually published as a complete story and edited to fit also has this notion.

Sador may be wrong, but his information is supported elsewhere.

'for in their first youth the Children of Men and Elves seem close akin. But the children of Men grow more swiftly and their youth passes soon; such is our fate.'

Ultimately as you yourself have done prior, I give precedent to actually published stories over notes, unless there is a clear mistake which Christopher Tolkien later clears up.

I don't have the Vinyar Tengwar and know the full context of that quote.

We do have the essay in Morgoth's ring which is Tolkien's most extensive work on the subject and it is corroborated by Sador's words.

As for the 3,000 years that seems to have been a disregarded idea, because considering the time frame we have, then the fourth generation descendants of Finwe like Idril would not be born before the rebellion.

I will look up things and write more in depth later.

[Mithalwen]

Morth, again Laws and customs of the Eldar make it clear that that kind of childhood arrangement is not possible for the elves, though they may choose each other as children but for elves although they do make vows the act of sexual union constitutes marriage. Again I say that elves were not physically mature until at least fifty and tended to marry soon after. So by this yardstick it is clear that Dior and Elwing and Earendil were on a mortal timetable marrying in young adulthood ( very young mortal women maybe capable of childbearing in early adolescence but it isn't a great idea for health reasons, also the average age of menarche has got progressively earlier) . I concede HoME wasn't. Published in Tolkien's lifetime but then neither was the Silmarillion and it seems more valid to use a coherent Tolkien essay on the subject than to extrapolate from medeaeval history. Lace indicates that men reach mortals reach maturity two to two and a half times quicker than elves.