Failure and Punishment

[Lotrelf]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

A sort of mechanistic hyper-Calvinism Tolkien would never have considered. So, was Theodred a bad man? Were all those soldiers of Gondor and Rohan and Lorien and Mirkwood and Erebor who died in the war sinners, while their sinless companions survived? Ah doan thank so.


Tolkien is unambiguous (in his Letters) that Gollum's fall into the Fire was the finger of God, a divine intervention which could be seen as a "reward" for Frodo's total sacrifice. But he's also clear that this is a singular exception - a miracle, if you will - and not the sort of thing that happens except in matters of great Doom (cf. Beren & Luthien)

Actually, what Carter said is that those people other than Frodo, who were scarred or died in the battles were heroes. Their wounds (or deaths) were the proof of their bravery while Frodo's wounds were deserving, i.e. he deserved them because of folly,over-confidence and weakness rather than bravery. An inherently flawed theory this is!

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

Actually, what Carter said is that those people other than Frodo, who were scarred or died in the battles were heroes. Their wounds (or deaths) were the proof of their bravery while Frodo's wounds were deserving, i.e. he deserved them because of folly,over-confidence and weakness rather than bravery. An inherently flawed theory this is!

The idea of Frodo deserving his pains and misfortunes derived from his experience with the Ring is rubbish.
It was a burden too great for him, as indeed for any in Middle-earth, or any whose innate spiritual power was inferior to Sauron's. Frodo's "failure" was really in his own mind, and no guilt was ever laid on him by anyone in the books: least of all Gandalf, surely the spokesman for for the Valar (and by proxy, the One). Gandalf, in Rivendell, did not judge Frodo for using the Ring on Weathertop, and nothing was ever said about his refusal to throw away the Ring into the Fire. Gandalf understood. If Frodo's "failure" really was due to his own moral weakness, and he had not utterly expended his body and will in resisting the Ring's power, then surely his sojourn into the West would have been disallowed.

[Faramir Jones]

The Saucepan Man earlier talked about Bilbo's theft of the Arkenstone. One could strongly argue that he did not steal it; he was just taking his promised reward.

In the original contact with Thorin and Company, Bilbo was promised one fourteenth share of the profits, in return for his services. Later, after surviving a second encounter with Smaug, he was given the option of picking his own fourteenth share. Therefore, Bilbo, having fulfilled his part of the contract, picked his reward by taking the Arkenstone as his fourteenth. When discussing matters with Bard and the Elvenking, he showed them his copy of the contract before handing over the Arkenstone, making it clear that he was entitled to it, and therefore entitled to give it away as he saw fit.

Later, once Thorin found out, and was persuaded not to kill Bilbo, he publicly accepted this state of affairs, saying that he would, for the Arkenstone's return, give a fourteenth share of the silver and gold part of the treasure.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The idea of Frodo deserving his pains and misfortunes derived from his experience with the Ring is rubbish.
It was a burden too great for him, as indeed for any in Middle-earth, or any whose innate spiritual power was inferior to Sauron's. Frodo's "failure" was really in his own mind, and no guilt was ever laid on him by anyone in the books: least of all Gandalf, surely the spokesman for for the Valar (and by proxy, the One). Gandalf, in Rivendell, did not judge Frodo for using the Ring on Weathertop, and nothing was ever said about his refusal to throw away the Ring into the Fire. Gandalf understood. If Frodo's "failure" really was due to his own moral weakness, and he had not utterly expended his body and will in resisting the Ring's power, then surely his sojourn into the West would have been disallowed.

I agree completely and it's sad that Frodo was never given the respect he deserved by the other Hobbits. They sadly could not see the bigger picture and what Frodo had sacrificed and done for not only the Shire, but the world. I do find it terribly ironic that the films also don't give Frodo the credit he deserves, and casual fans of the movies regard him as a failure and weak.

[Lotrelf]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I agree completely and it's sad that Frodo was never given the respect he deserved by the other Hobbits. They sadly could not see the bigger picture and what Frodo had sacrificed and done for not only the Shire, but the world. I do find it terribly ironic that the films also don't give Frodo the credit he deserves, and casual fans of the movies regard him as a failure and weak.

Movies focus on him in the end only. On not getting credit in the Shire, you can consider it another way too: He had grown beyond any Hobbit/Human stature and become something like Gandalf, Galadriel and Elrond. Shire-folk kind of detested Gandalf and didn't care much of the Elves. They didn't realize the big picture, this was better for them. Frodo's fading from the mortal world made him more susceptible to the spiritual world. That, IMHO, isn't a punishment, but a reward.