Frodo's change from book to film - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lotrelf · 04-13-2014, 12:55 AM

I agree with others here. There's a very thin line between weak and vulnerable, and movies seemed to be crossing the line. Frodo Was vulnerable but he was NOT weak. People speak of the "unknown" Frodo that doesn't belong to the Books and bash him.

Pervinca Took · 04-13-2014, 04:45 AM

I was watching "Hobitit" recently on YouTube (a Finnish dramatisation of the hobbitocentric parts of LOTR, adapted from a stage play and televised in Finland in 1993) and wondering whether Peter Jackson might have seen and been influenced by it. Although the Frodo in this is much maturer than PJ's, he does seem more passive than in the book. Not just at Weathertop, but also in the Barrow.

Jabbawocky Took · 04-21-2014, 03:53 PM

'Basket case', that's a good way to describe Frodo in th film, CSteefel. I had often felt he was reduced to being a mere mule, someone who physically transports the Ring, but with almost all the spiritual, intellectual and moral struggle removed. I agree as has been mentioned above, one of the biggest losses to his character was the cutting out of his dialogue with Faramir. That was powerful in the book.

FerniesApple · 08-21-2014, 02:32 PM

I thought Elijah Wood was inspired casting, his expressive little face was a perfect balance between the jovial younger Hobbits and serious Sam. Frodo was vulnerable which made the horror of his situation all the more heartbreaking. if they had made him more aggressive or 'manly' it would have been a bit less interesting, the fact that a male hero can be gentle and vulnerable and NOT be a woman is very unusual and I like it. Indeed I find (generally from reading a lot on Tolkien forums) that male fans dislike Frodo/Elijah more than female fans, women tend to find a more gentle Frodo appealing whereas the men think he is a wuss compared to the book. I think film Frodo is more nuanced, I like that he doesnt fight as much as in the book, he is still as determined to go on, but it makes Sam stand out as the solid strength that keeps them both going, in the book they are more evenly matched, in the films Frodo is more fey and almost Elven looking. I like him.

Leaf · 08-22-2014, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FerniesApple

Frodo was vulnerable which made the horror of his situation all the more heartbreaking. if they had made him more aggressive or 'manly' it would have been a bit less interesting, the fact that a male hero can be gentle and vulnerable and NOT be a woman is very unusual and I like it.

Well, Book-Frodo is vulnerable and gentle aswell on many, many occasions. But he is also able to stand up for himself in really tough situations. This (very hobbit-like) kind of courage is what Gandalf sees in Frodo, when he deems him to be the most qualified Hobbit of the shire. The first movie took away a large chunk of this and replaced it with him being completly defensless: We don´t see him defying the will of the ring and rescuing his friends in the barrow downs; Instead of fighting back on the weathertop he falls to the ground (which he does alot in the trilogy) and so on. Like you I can see the appeal of this approach. I can understand why they decided to handle Frodo´s character in this manner but they overdid it for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FerniesApple

Indeed I find (generally from reading a lot on Tolkien forums) that male fans dislike Frodo/Elijah more than female fans, women tend to find a more gentle Frodo appealing whereas the men think he is a wuss compared to the book

I don´t know why this has to be a gender issue. I guess some people do want to feel something else than just compassion or pity (for this poor little fella). Especially when said character is supposed to be the protagonist of a movie.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FerniesApple

Frodo is more nuanced, I like that he doesnt fight as much as in the book,

I don´t see how stripping his character of certain traits, whilst highlighting other traits results in a more nuanced characterisation. Again you seem to imply that Frodo is this aggressive, actionhero kinda guy in the books which is not the case. Frodo has alot of reserved, introvert and vulnerable moments in the novel but they are more in balance with his courage and determination.

FerniesApple · 08-23-2014, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leaf

Well, Book-Frodo is vulnerable and gentle aswell on many, many occasions. But he is also able to stand up for himself in really tough situations. This (very hobbit-like) kind of courage is what Gandalf sees in Frodo, when he deems him to be the most qualified Hobbit of the shire. The first movie took away a large chunk of this and replaced it with him being completly defensless: We don´t see him defying the will of the ring and rescuing his friends in the barrow downs; Instead of fighting back on the weathertop he falls to the ground (which he does alot in the trilogy) and so on. Like you I can see the appeal of this approach. I can understand why they decided to handle Frodo´s character in this manner but they overdid it for me.

I don´t know why this has to be a gender issue. I guess some people do want to feel something else than just compassion or pity (for this poor little fella). Especially when said character is supposed to be the protagonist of a movie.

I don´t see how stripping his character of certain traits, whilst highlighting other traits results in a more nuanced characterisation. Again you seem to imply that Frodo is this aggressive, actionhero kinda guy in the books which is not the case. Frodo has alot of reserved, introvert and vulnerable moments in the novel but they are more in balance with his courage and determination.

firstly how do you know its the reason of being able to stand up for himself that Gandalf chooses him? Its more like the Tookish qualities of adventure seeking that Bilbo also had hidden under his comfort loving exterior, or the fact he was related to Bilbo, Gandalf probably didnt know Frodo all that well having made brief appearances in Hobbiton before the Party. I think Gandalf felt that ALL Hobbits could be courageous in times of need, and Frodo seemed the fey almost Elven seeming relative of Bilbo.

Secondly we dont see the Barrow Downs at all so we dont know what would have happened in the film. I think they chose not to show him fighting on Weathertop so that Aragorn would look more like a protecting influence, all the Hobbits are portrayed as being frightened by the Ringwraiths, not just Frodo. Its a bit like showing Bilbo fighting off orcs and spiders way too soon in The Hobbit films, if they try to make Frodo too assertive too soon it takes away from his story arc in my opinion. Anyway Frodos strength is never in use of arms but interior courage, and you dont need to wave a sword around to show courage.

It doesnt have to be a gender issue, its just my observations of the gender issue. Men and women like different things, its not a problem.

No I dont think book Frodo is an aggressive guy, you are reading too much into my words. But book Frodo is more assertive in certain situations, Weathertop is one, but I really cant think of many examples where book Frodo is using more traditionally heroic methods like waving his sword about and stabbing things than in the film. I dont agree that they stripped away many of his traits of courage in the films. It depends on your definition of courage, sometimes courage is interior and thats what I liked about Woods performance.

Nerwen · 08-23-2014, 09:01 PM

FerniesApple, the groups "men" and "women" are made up of millions and millions of individuals, with their own personalities, opinions, tastes and interests, so I'd say it's best to avoid making sweeping statements about "what women like" based on what I'd guess is a pretty small sample.

I mean, yes,*some* women (especially teenage girls, which is what I suspect your sample mostly is) have a sort of "thing" for males who seem fragile or "broken"; I suppose it's an equivalent of the damsel-in-distress archetype. But again, that's some women, not "women".

For my part, no, I didn't care for the way the films handled Frodo at all, and to me it suggests that the writers were in fact working from the basic assumption that any man *not* a traditional action hero type must be a total sissy. I don't think they added nuance, I think they removed it.

(As for Bilbo, the new films are all over the map on *his* characterisation.)

04-13-2014, 12:55 AM	#1
Lotrelf Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 265	I agree with others here. There's a very thin line between weak and vulnerable, and movies seemed to be crossing the line. Frodo Was vulnerable but he was NOT weak. People speak of the "unknown" Frodo that doesn't belong to the Books and bash him. __________________ A short saying oft contains much wisdom. ~Sophocles

04-13-2014, 04:45 AM	#2
Pervinca Took Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: The Treetops, C/O Great Smials Posts: 5,035	I was watching "Hobitit" recently on YouTube (a Finnish dramatisation of the hobbitocentric parts of LOTR, adapted from a stage play and televised in Finland in 1993) and wondering whether Peter Jackson might have seen and been influenced by it. Although the Frodo in this is much maturer than PJ's, he does seem more passive than in the book. Not just at Weathertop, but also in the Barrow. __________________ "Sit by the firelight's glow; tell us an old tale we know. Tell of adventures strange and rare; never to change, ever to share! Stories we tell will cast their spell, now and for always." Last edited by Pervinca Took; 04-13-2014 at 05:38 AM.

08-23-2014, 09:01 PM	#7
Nerwen Wisest of the Noldor Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: ˙˙˙ssɐןƃ ƃuıʞooן ǝɥʇ ɥƃnoɹɥʇ Posts: 6,694	FerniesApple, the groups "men" and "women" are made up of millions and millions of individuals, with their own personalities, opinions, tastes and interests, so I'd say it's best to avoid making sweeping statements about "what women like" based on what I'd guess is a pretty small sample. I mean, yes,some women (especially teenage girls, which is what I suspect your sample mostly is) have a sort of "thing" for males who seem fragile or "broken"; I suppose it's an equivalent of the damsel-in-distress archetype. But again, that's some women, not "women". For my part, no, I didn't care for the way the films handled Frodo at all, and to me it suggests that the writers were in fact working from the basic assumption that any man not a traditional action hero type must be a total sissy. I don't think they added nuance, I think they removed it. (As for Bilbo, the new films are all over the map on his characterisation.) __________________ "Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo.

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04-21-2014, 03:53 PM	#3
Jabbawocky Took Newly Deceased Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Bagshot Row Posts: 8	'Basket case', that's a good way to describe Frodo in th film, CSteefel. I had often felt he was reduced to being a mere mule, someone who physically transports the Ring, but with almost all the spiritual, intellectual and moral struggle removed. I agree as has been mentioned above, one of the biggest losses to his character was the cutting out of his dialogue with Faramir. That was powerful in the book.

08-21-2014, 02:32 PM	#4
FerniesApple Haunting Spirit Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 92	I thought Elijah Wood was inspired casting, his expressive little face was a perfect balance between the jovial younger Hobbits and serious Sam. Frodo was vulnerable which made the horror of his situation all the more heartbreaking. if they had made him more aggressive or 'manly' it would have been a bit less interesting, the fact that a male hero can be gentle and vulnerable and NOT be a woman is very unusual and I like it. Indeed I find (generally from reading a lot on Tolkien forums) that male fans dislike Frodo/Elijah more than female fans, women tend to find a more gentle Frodo appealing whereas the men think he is a wuss compared to the book. I think film Frodo is more nuanced, I like that he doesnt fight as much as in the book, he is still as determined to go on, but it makes Sam stand out as the solid strength that keeps them both going, in the book they are more evenly matched, in the films Frodo is more fey and almost Elven looking. I like him.