what would possibly exist in the farthest east?

[tom the eldest]

Hello everybody.im new to this forum but i had read most of tolkien creation(through lotr wikia and tolken gateway of course)but none of them give a clue to what live beyond rhun.anybody have guesses?

[Andsigil]

Alatar, Pallando, and whatever kingdoms they managed to carve out.

[tom the eldest]

Yes but maybe there are indigenous people.tribe or kingdom like you says or just a wilderness with strange unknown thing.heck probably a balrog escape there.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

Yes but maybe there are indigenous people.tribe or kingdom like you says or just a wilderness with strange unknown thing.heck probably a balrog escape there.

There were Men there no doubt, probably subject to Sauron. Dwarves also were to be found in the East, though their deeds were little known in the West of Middle-earth.

[Zigûr]

Beyond Rhûn? A distant sea, I expect. As far as I was aware Rhûn was essentially everything east of Rhovanion to the far coasts of Middle-earth, beyond the Orocarni perhaps.

Within Rhûn: kingdoms of Men and Dwarves (as has been said), some remnant of the Avari Elves, Orcs I would imagine. We have to imagine a land which had lain deep under the shadow since time immemorial.

Professor Tolkien of course never went into any greater detail for, I would argue, two reasons:
a) the fictional authors of his narratives knew nothing further about Rhûn
b) having parts of Middle-earth which were unknown maintained the sense of mystery and 'unseen vistas' which he thought were important

[Alfirin]

Hard to say. It is tempting to think that, as ME is in a certain sense, an earlier form of our own world, that if you went far enough east, you would find other large kingdom's of man, corresponding to the large ancient Asian empires of our own world (Indian, Chinese, Kmer etc.) But as you point out, there is really nothing said one way or the other. If such kingdoms exist, I imagine that one of them is probably similar to Near Harad (if only because the Near Haradrim with thier skills at Oliphaunt riding seem as much Indian in orgin as North African/Middle Eastern) I'd say that there was some influence on the West in that one would assume that the far east would be where gunpowder was discovered (as it was in our world) but evidence seems to lay on the Ishtari discovering gunpower all on thier own (either Saruman figuring it out and letting Gandalf in on the technique back when they were still on speaking terms (or vice versa), or Gandalf discovering it independently.)
Actually, there might be a lot of incentive in later ME to find out what lay to the east. Besides wanting to make sure a new Dark Lord or some sort was not gathering power there wating to swing in and retake lands now rendered masterless by Sauron's defeat, Faramir might want to make a trip. He is still techically steward of Gondor (even if he only excercises that right in cases where the King is away on other matters. He might decide that the line of the Stewards needs a replacement horn (now that the original is broken and buried), and that would mean sending someone traipsing around the east in the hope that somewhere out there there are still Kine of Araw wandering around.

[Belegorn]

I've no idea what may be out there. Perhaps some Elves and Men. I'm not sure if all the Men who're descended of the 3 Houses went west nor all of the Elves. Perhaps some lingered at their awakening places and even went the opposite direction.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Hard to say. It is tempting to think that, as ME is in a certain sense, an earlier form of our own world, that if you went far enough east, you would find other large kingdom's of man, corresponding to the large ancient Asian empires of our own world (Indian, Chinese, Kmer etc.) But as you point out, there is really nothing said one way or the other. If such kingdoms exist, I imagine that one of them is probably similar to Near Harad (if only because the Near Haradrim with thier skills at Oliphaunt riding seem as much Indian in orgin as North African/Middle Eastern) I'd say that there was some influence on the West in that one would assume that the far east would be where gunpowder was discovered (as it was in our world) but evidence seems to lay on the Ishtari discovering gunpower all on thier own (either Saruman figuring it out and letting Gandalf in on the technique back when they were still on speaking terms (or vice versa), or Gandalf discovering it independently.)

Actually, there might be a lot of incentive in later ME to find out what lay to the east. Besides wanting to make sure a new Dark Lord or some sort was not gathering power there wating to swing in and retake lands now rendered masterless by Sauron's defeat, Faramir might want to make a trip. He is still techically steward of Gondor (even if he only excercises that right in cases where the King is away on other matters. He might decide that the line of the Stewards needs a replacement horn (now that the original is broken and buried), and that would mean sending someone traipsing around the east in the hope that somewhere out there there are still Kine of Araw wandering around.

An interesting thought.

For some reason I have always thought of the wainriders and the other 'easterlings' under Sauron's sway, as being inspired by historical near-eastern societies. Therefore I also imagined that there would be other kingdoms further to the east, not under the dominion of Sauron.

[Alfirin]

Possibly, I've always thought the Wainriders were sort of the ME equivalent of the Scythians (also noted as horsemen and charioteers). Since the Scythinas were near eastern (their territory was mostly in the Iranian Steppes) That would bear it out.
And I would also like to think a few of the Farther Eastern kingdoms could have been Shadow Free. If they were, it might even be fun to imagine that rumors of these kingdoms were whispered in the west, and there was a belief that, should another menace on the level of Sauron arise, and it be neccecary in the absence of elves and wizards, armies of this shadow free east would ride out and lend their support to this evil force's conquest (sort of a ME version of the legend of Prester John.)

[tom the eldest]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Possibly, I've always thought the Wainriders were sort of the ME equivalent of the Scythians (also noted as horsemen and charioteers). Since the Scythinas were near eastern (their territory was mostly in the Iranian Steppes) That would bear it out.
And I would also like to think a few of the Farther Eastern kingdoms could have been Shadow Free. If they were, it might even be fun to imagine that rumors of these kingdoms were whispered in the west, and there was a belief that, should another menace on the level of Sauron arise, and it be neccecary in the absence of elves and wizards, armies of this shadow free east would ride out and lend their support to this evil force's conquest (sort of a ME version of the legend of Prester John.)

An eastern kingdom eh? Hmmm interesting.yeah maybe there are kingdoms in the east but probably more like the haradrim(minus the mumakil),a tribal kigdom fighting each other.the technology there would maybe be quite advanced,seeing that they had chariots,which the west NEVER used/invented.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

the technology there would maybe be quite advanced,seeing that they had chariots,which the west NEVER used/invented.

On the contrary, I see the use of chariots by the Easterlings (and elephant cavalry by the Haradrim, incidentally) as evidence that their cultures were primitive, not advanced. Extensive use of chariots was characteristic of pre-Classical cultures like the Egyptians (among many others). The West had steel weapons and mail, advanced architectural techniques, naval technology etc and a generally more early-medieval flavour.

I have always seen the Easterlings' use of chariots as evidence that their development was "held back" by their long history as thralls to the Shadow.

[tom the eldest]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

On the contrary, I see the use of chariots by the Easterlings (and elephant cavalry by the Haradrim, incidentally) as evidence that their cultures were primitive, not advanced. Extensive use of chariots was characteristic of pre-Classical cultures like the Egyptians (among many others). The West had steel weapons and mail, advanced architectural techniques, naval technology etc and a generally more early-medieval flavour.

I have always seen the Easterlings' use of chariots as evidence that their development was "held back" by their long history as thralls to the Shadow.

By "advanced"i mean that very few,if none,of the west's war machine could match the chariots.the cloeset thing that the west have to counter the chariots maybe their very strong horsemen,like rohirrim and dol amroth knights.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

On the contrary, I see the use of chariots by the Easterlings (and elephant cavalry by the Haradrim, incidentally) as evidence that their cultures were primitive, not advanced. Extensive use of chariots was characteristic of pre-Classical cultures like the Egyptians (among many others). The West had steel weapons and mail, advanced architectural techniques, naval technology etc and a generally more early-medieval flavour.

I have always seen the Easterlings' use of chariots as evidence that their development was "held back" by their long history as thralls to the Shadow.

I guess that would be true if the Gondorians had previously been using chariots, and these had become obsolete. However this does not seem to be the case...

It is an interesting question, especially since there can be no doubt that the Kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor was the most technological advanced states in ME at their founding. Arnor disintegrated and Gondor entered something that could be called 'dark ages' where their knowledge waned.

So while other cultures most likely progressed, the Numenorean's regressed.
Would it have been possible for other cultures to overtake them?

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

I guess that would be true if the Gondorians had previously been using chariots, and these had become obsolete. However this does not seem to be the case...

Does this necessarily follow? The Men of the West certainly used wheeled, horse-drawn vehicles in general. They evidently knew what chariots were by observation even if they didn't use them. I don't see the use of chariots in particular as some kind of 'necessary' step in the technological progress of a society, ie "the Men of the West did not use chariots therefore they were more primitive than the Easterlings."

Frodo himself upon Amon Hen observed the Easterlings as having "swordsmen, spearmen, bowmen upon horses, chariots of chieftains and laden wains" (emphasis mine) which suggests to me that even Easterling chariots were more commonly used for ceremonial purposes and as transportation than as weapons.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

On the contrary, I see the use of chariots by the Easterlings (and elephant cavalry by the Haradrim, incidentally) as evidence that their cultures were primitive, not advanced. Extensive use of chariots was characteristic of pre-Classical cultures like the Egyptians (among many others). The West had steel weapons and mail, advanced architectural techniques, naval technology etc and a generally more early-medieval flavour.

I have always seen the Easterlings' use of chariots as evidence that their development was "held back" by their long history as thralls to the Shadow.

I'm not sure that Elephant cavalry can be considered "primitive" either. It seems to me that were are confusing a lack of tech with a lack of resources. The Haradrim use elephant because they HAVE elephants. The West doesn't so it doesn't. In our world, elephant cavalry has been used by pretty advanced civilizations, The Mugals (and all of the other Indian kingdoms, the Khmer and all of the South east asians. Hannibal (elephants or not, he was a Roman trained general and was generally using Roman level tactics.) As for the steel, mail etc. we don't to my knowledge get a full detailed description of Haradrim arms and armor, they could be comperable. And we never see any of thier cities, so thier archetecture is anybody's guess. Yes, Gondor and Arnor have a sort of late roman/early medival feel, but think of what other civilizations were around during ours, and their level of tech. Plenty of them were at rougly the same level of civilization (if indeed such things can really be quantified) In fact, if you are talking early Medival, the Islamic world would probably be slighty MORE advanced tecnically; while we were dealing with whatever setbacks the Dark Ages gave us, they weren't The crusades certinly had an aful lot of cases of "advanced" Medival Europeans getting thier armored asses handed to them by the "Primitive" Islamic empires, and not all becuase of them being closer or better used to the terrain. If you want to put Gondor and Arnor as early Medival Europe, then the kingdoms of the East we'd be talking about would be things like Imperial China, The kingdoms of India, A Kmer who were busy building Angkor Wat, a Japan that was already starting the Samurai period Mayans in Mesoamerica, Mound Builders in Southeast North America, Anasazi cities in Southwestern America, Chaco and Early Incas in Peru and so on. I'm not actually trying to say that your assertion that the West was more tecnically advanced is wholly incorrect, but it seems to me it has less to do with objective facts and more to do with Tolkien's own Eurocentrism and Anglophilia.

[Galadriel55]

I think that the divide between military development does not signify more/less military advancement, just different types of advancement. Like the crusades were a clash of the lighter but more brittle Muslim forces against the heavier but stronger Western Europeans. And both had wins and both had losses. I think the two tactics or styles are just so different that they are practically incomparable - you can compare specific weapons, maneouvres, mobility, organization, etc., but when put together they seem like to much of a heterogenous mixture to really compare or predict the outcome based on numbers and strength. It seems like militarily speaking, each one has to play out its strengths to the fullest and hope that they are enough to overcome the enemy's strengths.

[tom the eldest]

The easterling do have some military advance.for example,the have an effective anti-cavalry techniques,which is why they were feared by rohirrim and gondor.they also had some advance in agricultural,seeing that most of sauron food were made in rhun,due to the ashes of mount doom make fertile land in rhun.they armour is also pretty different from the west.the west had wing-shaped helmet and iron armour,while the easterling had fearsome dragon-shaped helmet and golden armour.considering that the easterling can make gold into a strong armour,i think that they had some advanced metalurgy techniques.

[mhagain]

"Rhûn" just means "east", so it's more-or-less equivalent to saying "over thataway".

Tolkien never mapped nor fully described the region, but we do know some of what's out there. In the original symmetric design there was a range of mountains to the east, mirroring the Blue Mountains in the west; the Red Mountains (Orocarni), and it may be surmised that these are still there (the west recieved far more damage at the end of the First and Second Ages; the east appears to have been relatively unscathed).

The Mountains of the Wind were towards the east and slightly south too. According to a wiki page they were destroyed in the War of Wrath, but the only evidence I can find that they may no longer exist is the fact that they appear on Ambarkanta map IV but not on map V (and map V still has Beleriand on it so it pre-dates the War of Wrath, meaning that if they were destroyed it was before then).

The Inland Sea of Helcar existed in the east too; according to one theory it shrank (possibly draining into the Bay of Belfalas/Great Gulf) at the end of the First Age, leaving behind Mordor (which by this theory would have been underwater in the First Age!) and the Sea of Rhûn as a remnant. This seems to be based on not much more than a speculation by CT in one of the HoME books (and an attempt to match Ambarkanta map V with the later geography).

However, the Cirdan essay in HoME 12 states that the Teleri lived by the Sea of Rhûn for an extended time during the Great Journey, which seems to me to indicate that they're separate seas.

Beyond that there's a shore, the east sea (narrower than Belegaer) and an eastern continent mirroring Aman.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

The easterling do have some military advance.for example,the have an effective anti-cavalry techniques,which is why they were feared by rohirrim and gondor.

Where does it say that? Besides, the Men of Gondor rarely used cavalry in battle (as opposed to mounted infantry) beyond the Knights of Dol Amroth so I fail to see how that's likely.

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

they also had some advance in agricultural,seeing that most of sauron food were made in rhun,due to the ashes of mount doom make fertile land in rhun.

No, most of Sauron's food was grown in Nurn, the southern and largest part of Mordor, not in Rhûn. Also it was grown by slaves, not specifically by the Easterlings - although I'm more than willing to consider that many of Sauron's slaves probably were Easterlings.

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

they armour is also pretty different from the west.the west had wing-shaped helmet and iron armour,while the easterling had fearsome dragon-shaped helmet and golden armour.considering that the easterling can make gold into a strong armour,i think that they had some advanced metalurgy techniques.

Where is this ever stated? This sounds like an assumption based on the film where they wear gold or bronze covered equipment. Now the Man of Harad who dies in front of Sam, on the other hand, is described as wearing a "golden collar" and a "corslet of overlapping brazen plates" but this is one of the Haradrim, not an Easterling. We don't know much about the equipment of the Easterlings at all, actually, except that some used axes in battle.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Where is this ever stated? This sounds like an assumption based on the film where they wear gold or bronze covered equipment. Now the Man of Harad who dies in front of Sam, on the other hand, is described as wearing a "golden collar" and a "corslet of overlapping brazen plates" but this is one of the Haradrim, not an Easterling. We don't know much about the equipment of the Easterlings at all, actually, except that some used axes in battle.

Even in the movie, I doubt very much whether the Easterlings’ armour is meant to be *made* of gold.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Even in the movie, I doubt very much whether the Easterlings’ armour is meant to be *made* of gold.

Agreed. Gold is a lousy metal to make armor out of; it's very heavy and more importantly, very soft. It might be OK for "parade" (ceremonial or ornamental) armor, but no one with any sense would wear it as protection in actual combat. I can sort of imagine someone wearing gold PLATED armor,for ornament (though unless Harad has a LOT of gold, even that might be stretching things for any but the highest ranking officers.) I can even imagine a few useful effects of this. Since gold doesn't corrode such armor would never need to be polished and would be rust resistant (provided you remembered to patch and holes that weapons made in the plating). But under the plate, it would still be iron, steel or bronze with the reference in the book heavily suggesting bronze as the most likely option (actually the reference says "brazen" which would mean brass, but I've never heard of anyone making armor out of brass, so I think it possible that the plates were bronze and Sam misidentified).

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, war-chariots were 'primitive', in that they were an intermediate step on the way to full mounted cavaltry. Some cultures of course skipped right over the step; but it certainly was the case that chariots by classical times had been relegated to parades and races- and a few isolated and, yes, backwards peoples like the Britons.

Basically, chariots were for armies that hadn't yet figured out how to fight from horeseback; decent cav would rip them a new one.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Well, war-chariots were 'primitive', in that they were an intermediate step on the way to full mounted cavaltry. Some cultures of course skipped right over the step; but it certainly was the case that chariots by classical times had been relegated to parades and races- and a few isolated and, yes, backwards peoples like the Britons.

Basically, chariots were for armies that hadn't yet figured out how to fight from horeseback; decent cav would rip them a new one.

The east-to-west migration of successive tribes like the Balchoth and Wainriders might mirror the Iron Age Celtic migrations across Europe, as Celts were avid charioteers. The Gaelic culture had its hero Cuchulainn riding a chariot into battle, and the Britons, with very Tolkienesque nomenclature, had the Wetwang Chariot:

http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore...ot_burial.aspx

[tom the eldest]

Chariots were probably more useful in ME.the only time gondor ever win against balchoth and wainriders was because they had allies.in the balchoth case,the rohirrim ambushes them from the rear,while in the wainriders case,eärnil was ambushing them in their camp,whoch is known as the battle of the camp.but,the chariots were no match for the rohirrim,because chariots are,i think,less agile than horseman.

[denethorthefirst]

There are probably several dwarven kingdoms in the east. We know that all the dwarven houses united to fight the orcs of the misty mountains in the war of the orcs and dwarves. Since the only dwarven states/groups that are mentioned in the west are those in the iron mountains, the blue mountains, erebor and moria the remaining houses must have come from the east. If I remember correctly four of the seven dwarven houses originated in the east. Considering that Sauron couldn't conquer Moria I guess it's likely that these dwarven pockets survived during the second and third ages even though Sauron ruled the surrounding areas.

I always wondered what happened to the Avari. It's possible I guess that they prospered relatively uninterrupted in the first age while Morgoth was locked up in the North during his war with the Noldor. Luckily for the Avari he wasn't in a position to divert much of his attention to the rest of arda during the wars in Beleriand. Maybe the Avari built several great kingdoms, or maybe they lacked the population numbers and necessary culture to built successful states and got annihilated in wars against dwarves, men and morgoths surviving monsters from his days at utumno.
At least by the time of the second Age, when Sauron expanded eastwards, the peaceful time for the Avari probably ended and they were either enslaved or hunted down.

[Marwhini]

I could swear that in The Hobbit Bilbo mentions that there were "Snake-men" out in the Sandy Deserts to the far-East-of-East.

I think that was just Hobbit-Myth, though (A Fairy-tale in a Fairy-tale).

MB

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by denethorthefirst

There are probably several dwarven kingdoms in the east. We know that all the dwarven houses united to fight the orcs of the misty mountains in the war of the orcs and dwarves. Since the only dwarven states/groups that are mentioned in the west are those in the iron mountains, the blue mountains, erebor and moria the remaining houses must have come from the east. If I remember correctly four of the seven dwarven houses originated in the east. Considering that Sauron couldn't conquer Moria I guess it's likely that these dwarven pockets survived during the second and third ages even though Sauron ruled the surrounding areas.

I always wondered what happened to the Avari. It's possible I guess that they prospered relatively uninterrupted in the first age while Morgoth was locked up in the North during his war with the Noldor. Luckily for the Avari he wasn't in a position to divert much of his attention to the rest of arda during the wars in Beleriand. Maybe the Avari built several great kingdoms, or maybe they lacked the population numbers and necessary culture to built successful states and got annihilated in wars against dwarves, men and morgoths surviving monsters from his days at utumno.
At least by the time of the second Age, when Sauron expanded eastwards, the peaceful time for the Avari probably ended and they were either enslaved or hunted down.

In Morgoth's Ring, specifically the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, Tolkien does mention that Morgoth, or one of his lieutenants, got out to Hildórien to muck things up for the Early Humans in Middle-earth, turning them completely to Morgothism (worship of Morgoth), and turning them away from their "Gift," causing them to fear Death rather than welcoming it when their time was allotted.

And Tolkien in his exploration of Orcs, and where they come from mentions that Morgoth got out East quite a bit, even in the First Age (Probably not personally, unless we count the possible once that he left to go enslave humanity).

But the Avari could still have built significant kingdoms out there.

There is even some room to look into extra-canonical Peoples out there representing an Idealized East-Asian kingdom, with an associated Elven Kingdom.

I heard someone at a convention bring that possibility up, as a group of "Faithful" who fled even further East, rather than West.

MB

[Faramir Jones]

According to Akallabêth, published in The Silmarillion, due to the Ban of the Valar

the voyages of the Dúnedain in those days [most of the Second Age] went ever eastward and not westward, from the darkness of the North to the heats of the South, and beyond the South to the Nether Darkness; and they came even into the inner seas, and sailed about Middle-earth and glimpsed from their high prows the Gates of Morning in the East.

If those Gates were anything like how they've been represented by some artists, including Roger Garland, the sight of them must have been well worth the voyage!

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

According to Akallabêth, published in The Silmarillion, due to the Ban of the Valar

the voyages of the Dúnedain in those days [most of the Second Age] went ever eastward and not westward, from the darkness of the North to the heats of the South, and beyond the South to the Nether Darkness; and they came even into the inner seas, and sailed about Middle-earth and glimpsed from their high prows the Gates of Morning in the East.

If those Gates were anything like how they've been represented by some artists, including Roger Garland, the sight of them must have been well worth the voyage!

Unfortunately for those of the Third Age, I would think the Gates to have been done away with during the Downfall of Númenor. The Round World wouldn't seem to have a place for them.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Unfortunately for those of the Third Age, I would think the Gates to have been done away with during the Downfall of Númenor. The Round World wouldn't seem to have a place for them.

But the Golden Arches still exist! I saw them this morning on the way to the office.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

But the Golden Arches still exist! I saw them this morning on the way to the office.

The true legacy of Morgoth, a spark of evil never to be extinguished while Arda endures.