The differences between Elves and Men

[Galin]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

(...) In 'Quendi and Eldar' (1959-60) Nandorin (and thus its derivatives Ossiriandic and Silvan) is expressly stated to be of Lindarin/Telerin origin, and therefore Eldarin. (...)

Yes, and no doubt this issue is made notably misty and more complex due to posthumously published texts.

But App F as published appears on the face of it to return to the old conception, West-elves of Valinor and Avarin East-elves! (except for the 'promotion' of the Sindar). Indeed, text F4 of the appendix, written after the GLU with Sindarin now ensconced as the native tongue of Beleriand, says in so many words that the native peoples of Lorien and Mirkwood, despite their Sindarin nobility, were Avari: "many were Eastern Elves that had hearkened to no summons to the Sea, but being content with Middle-earth remained there, and remained long after, fading in fastnesses of the woods and hills....Of that kind were the Elves of Greenwood the Great; yet among them also were many lords of Sindarin race. Such were Thranduil and Legolas his son. In his realm and in Lorien both the Sindarin and the woodland tongues were heard; but of the latter notrhing appears in this book."

Well put as I expected

But I would emphasize 'on the face of it', as the word Avari was not employed in the final form of any text in the Appendix F, and the distinction between West-Elves [Eldar] versus the East-elves is maintained...

... but who are the East-elves? Not that you said otherwise, but I think they don't have to be Avari according to the author-published description [nor do the Minyar have to be named the Vanyar necessarily, on the Eldarin side of this coin]. They could be Telerin, they could be Avarin, they could be a mix of Teleri and Avari, as they are some grouping of Elves that are yet distinct from the West-elves -- those Elves who passed Over Sea plus only the Sindar.

And so what remains once the mist of all this posthumous complexity is blown away? To my mind: most of the Elves of Lorien and Mirkwod are East-elves, not Eldar, nor their languages Eldarin.

Which JRRT not only decided to publish in the 1950s, but if he was unhappy with this scenario, he yet didn't revise it given the chance in the 1960s.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Galin

Yes, and no doubt this issue is made notably misty and more complex due to posthumously published texts.




Well put as I expected

But I would emphasize 'on the face of it', as the word Avari was not employed in the final form of any text in the Appendix F, and the distinction between West-Elves [Eldar] versus the East-elves is maintained...

... but who are the East-elves? Not that you said otherwise, but I think they don't have to be Avari according to the author-published description [nor do the Minyar have to be named the Vanyar necessarily, on the Eldarin side of this coin]. They could be Telerin, they could be Avarin, they could be a mix of Teleri and Avari, as they are some grouping of Elves that are yet distinct from the West-elves -- those Elves who passed Over Sea plus only the Sindar.

And so what remains once the mist of all this posthumous complexity is blown away? To my mind: most of the Elves of Lorien and Mirkwod are East-elves, not Eldar, nor their languages Eldarin.

Which JRRT not only decided to publish in the 1950s, but if he was unhappy with this scenario, he yet didn't revise it given the chance in the 1960s.

They were, perhaps, Keeblerin Elves: shorter of stature, intent on perfecting baked goods (in imitation of the Noldorin Lembas), but still fond of living in trees.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, although the term "Avari" only entered the vocabulary with Quendi and Eldar, the description in F4 fits them to a tee: "hearkened to no summons to the Sea;" or perhaps rather, given the lack of a statement of active 'refusal' but including "content with Middle-earth remained there, and remained long after, fading in fastnesses of the woods and hills" it appears we have the Lemberi or 'Lingerers' of the Lhammas again.

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I'm not one to try to draw bright lines of 'canonicity;' I think ultimately the legendarium is its history, and changes and inconsistencies are part of it. Given Tolkien's way of working andf constant changes of mind, I don't think it's helpful to set up one dustbin of "posthumously-published works" that includes everything from vague sketches about the Dome of Varda, speculative essays like 'Orks', and works like Quendi and Eldar which were never intended for publication but rather as 'background' or 'lore' for JRRT's private purposes, and which were I think intended (at the time of writing) to be 'definitive' (allowing of course for the transient nature of 'definitive' when we're dealing with JRRT!

I also wouldn't put disproportionate weight on 'dogs that didn't bark' in the Revised Edition, which was after all not a comprehensive overhaul but a quick-and-dirty job for the purpose of regularising the US copyright. Some things T happened to have in his head and was happy to include, like the extended account of the Kinslaying; some were fairly 'easy' name changes like Finrod > Finarfin (tho he was imperfect even with that one). But T in revision hadr a tendency to pounce upon particular things that caught his eye, not a systematic approach at all. Certainly it's the case that he had definitely changed his mind about the Silvan tongue, even if he didn't amend App F; his Letters are unequivocal.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

I'm not one to try to draw bright lines of 'canonicity;'

Well that's my whole argument here

As I agree the draft texts imply Avarin Elves no matter when the term Avari came into use with its 'ultimate' meaning. But I'll add: not even author-published?

I think ultimately the legendarium is its history, and changes and inconsistencies are part of it. Given Tolkien's way of working andf constant changes of mind, I don't think it's helpful to set up one dustbin of "posthumously-published works" that includes everything from vague sketches about the Dome of Varda, speculative essays like 'Orks', and works like Quendi and Eldar which were never intended for publication but rather as 'background' or 'lore' for JRRT's private purposes, and which were I think intended (at the time of writing) to be 'definitive' (allowing of course for the transient nature of 'definitive' when we're dealing with JRRT!

I think it is helpful in some ways, if not in others. Or at least in one way.

I also wouldn't put disproportionate weight on 'dogs that didn't bark' in the Revised Edition, which was after all not a comprehensive overhaul but a quick-and-dirty job for the purpose of regularising the US copyright. Some things T happened to have in his head and was happy to include, like the extended account of the Kinslaying; some were fairly 'easy' name changes like Finrod > Finarfin (tho he was imperfect even with that one). But T in revision hadr a tendency to pounce upon particular things that caught his eye, not a systematic approach at all. Certainly it's the case that he had definitely changed his mind about the Silvan tongue, even if he didn't amend App F; his Letters are unequivocal.

I agree, Tolkien probably just 'missed' his chance. Maybe not too, as maybe his 'ros reaction' kicked in. But even if he simply missed his chance, why doesn't the answer that he published trump all else? Even Tolkien thought what he published in the Appendices about -ros must trump his change of mind later...

... and yes, he is not consistent here either; but I think it illustrates the different animal that even Tolkien knows he is dealing with -- and thus, for all we know, what he wrote in letters or any subsequent draft texts about the Eldar, would take a back seat to already published text...

... 'most of this fails' is a decision, yes, but based on consideration that simply doesn't exist with work that is still private to Tolkien -- even if that distinction is admittedly sweeping.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The finny thing about the Problem of Ros is that Tolkien could easily have got out of the Cair Andros issue, had he thought of it (or wanted to!)

[Galin]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

The finny thing about the Problem of Ros is that Tolkien could easily have got out of the Cair Andros issue, had he thought of it (or wanted to!)

I think so too actually... although there is Rauros as well. But JRRT didn't try here [seemingly], and in any case he knew he had to 'deal with it' in a way that he would not have had to if Cair Andros had not been published [as Sindarin].

Which is basically another canon-related thing to say so I'll shaddup for now