Are Elves vegatarian?

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

Oops! Are you sure you're talking about the Elves? Your description sounds more like that of Sauron or Morgoth's.

Ah, you see, when Morthoron said (in full) "Vegetables are what Elves eat when they can't get hobbit for dinner" what Morth meant was that Elves eat vegetables when they don't have hobbits around as dinner guests.

"Just bring out the cold chicken and pickles" indeed.

[Lotrelf]

Originally Posted by Zig�0‹4r

Ah, you see, when Morthoron said (in full) "Vegetables are what Elves eat when they can't get hobbit for dinner" what Morth meant was that Elves eat vegetables when they don't have hobbits around as dinner guests.

"Just bring out the cold chicken and pickles" indeed.

This, at first, didn't seem to make sense to me. Did Elves know other hobbits except the five- Bilbo, Frodo, Sam , Merry and Pip?
*confused*

[Wousides]

Elven lifestyle is more about use of nature out of necessity, rather than "because we can".

[Elmo]

Originally Posted by Wousides

Elven lifestyle is more about use of nature out of necessity, rather than "because we can".

Dunno, in Valinor which is paradise, do they really need to hunt and kill for food? Hunting in Tolkien's day wasn't really seen as that bad a thing. Though, Nimrodel despised the 'Elves of the West' for bringing war and strife, perhaps hunting is a sign of this. The Eldar really weren't one with nature especially compared to the Avari/Silvan Elves. Not very natural living in big stone towers and wearing steel armour.

[Orphalesion]

Originally Posted by Elmo

Dunno, in Valinor which is paradise, do they really need to hunt and kill for food? Hunting in Tolkien's day wasn't really seen as that bad a thing.

I assume so, I can't really picture Yavanna or Orome zapping freshly cooked roasts onto the plates of the Elves. Likewise I also think they still had to build their own houses, grow grain, farm animals, weave cloth, tan leather, forge tools etc. They just had an easier time doing these things than humans or even their brethren in Endor.

Originally Posted by Elmo

Though, Nimrodel despised the 'Elves of the West' for bringing war and strife, perhaps hunting is a sign of this. The Eldar really weren't one with nature especially compared to the Avari/Silvan Elves. Not very natural living in big stone towers and wearing steel armour.

I don't really see "hunting" as equal to war and strive, rather I think that Nimrodel had lived through the War of Sauron against the Elves as well as the last Alliance and blamed the Eldar for Sauron's presence so close to her home, perhaps believing that he had followed the Eldar from Beleriand.
I'm pretty sure the Sylvan Elves hunted already, the Eldar that had come to Mirkwood had adopted Sylvan culture, still they hunted and ate meat.

Personally I think the Green Elves of Ossirand were just their own culture and had developed their ways of not hunting animals and cutting wood for dwellings only after Denethor had died in order to be as invisible to intruders as possible. If these aspects were really true for all of the Green Elven tribes (which probably were very disconnected from one another) Calling the humans "murders of animals" can mean a lot, perhaps the Elves just meant the men were hunting more than they needed to survive?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Orphalesion

Personally I think the Green Elves of Ossirand were just their own culture and had developed their ways of not hunting animals and cutting wood for dwellings only after Denethor had died in order to be as invisible to intruders as possible. If these aspects were really true for all of the Green Elven tribes (which probably were very disconnected from one another) Calling the humans "murders of animals" can mean a lot, perhaps the Elves just meant the men were hunting more than they needed to survive?

It seems to me that the Green-elves saw Men as more guilty of 'disturbing the peace' than any more substantial crime. They probably saw the potential Men had for rapidly increasing their numbers and settling nearby, and were just looking for some excuse to pawn them off on Finrod, and hope he would take them out of the area.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Consider the Plains Indian reaction to the white buffalo hunters. It wasn't that the Sioux and Arapaho had any objection to hunting buffalo, per se......

[mhagain]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

This, at first, didn't seem to make sense to me. Did Elves know other hobbits except the five- Bilbo, Frodo, Sam , Merry and Pip?
*confused*

Gildor's people said "hobbits are so dull" yet Frodo seems to have never met them before (else Gildor wouldn't have needed to introduce himself). They were also walking rhrough the Shire and had lodgings there. It seems utterly certain that Elves were at least aware of Hobbits.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by mhagain

Gildor's people said "hobbits are so dull" yet Frodo seems to have never met them before (else Gildor wouldn't have needed to introduce himself). They were also walking rhrough the Shire and had lodgings there. It seems utterly certain that Elves were at least aware of Hobbits.

Certainly they were aware. Gildor told Frodo he had seen him with Bilbo before. And Frodo himself explained to Sam that though Elves did not live in the Shire, they sometimes roamed around the Woody End.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Ah, you see, when Morthoron said (in full) "Vegetables are what Elves eat when they can't get hobbit for dinner" what Morth meant was that Elves eat vegetables when they don't have hobbits around as dinner guests.

"Just bring out the cold chicken and pickles" indeed.

Obviously, you have never heard of "finger food".

[Lotrelf]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Obviously, you have never heard of "finger food".

"Finger Food"? I have heard of it.
Did the Elves know Hobbits well enough to invite them on dinners?
Another question that has never been answered to me. What about wine? Wine contains alcohol. Did the Hobbits, Dwarves and Men really drink "alcohol"? Alcohol is prepared chemically, in Labs. Did people in Middle-Earth prepare it chemically? How?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

Another question that has never been answered to me. What about wine? Wine contains alcohol. Did the Hobbits, Dwarves and Men really drink "alcohol"? Alcohol is prepared chemically, in Labs. Did people in Middle-Earth prepare it chemically? How?

Alcoholic drinks definitely were known and imbibed in Middle-earth. In The Hobbit, the butler and chief guard of the Wood-elves had enough wine to make them pass out, allowing Bilbo and the Dwarves to escape.
In FOTR, it was noted that in the aftermath of Bilbo's party, wheelbarrows had to be used to remove guests that had "inadvertently remained behind", and when Frodo jumped onto the table at the Prancing Pony in Bree, it was surmised that he was drunk. In The Two Towers Faramir gave wine to Frodo and Sam, and drank it in Minas Tirith himself.

Why would it take a laboratory to produce ethyl alcohol? Drinks containing it have been made by various processes for thousands of years in our world. There are still peoples that utilize traditional methods even today. Why should it be any different in Tolkien's world?

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

"Finger Food"? I have heard of it.
Did the Elves know Hobbits well enough to invite them on dinners?
Another question that has never been answered to me. What about wine? Wine contains alcohol. Did the Hobbits, Dwarves and Men really drink "alcohol"? Alcohol is prepared chemically, in Labs. Did people in Middle-Earth prepare it chemically? How?

You can make it in labs. Or you can make it in your own home. People have made ale and wine fore millennia before laboratories. My parents had a wine making phase when I was young and we had demijohns glugging away. You ferment grape juice with yeast and the sugar turns into alcohol. The alcohol meant it was safer to drink ale or wine than most water, though they used to drink a weak beer called small ale in olden days which meant at least some work got done. Butterbur brewed his own ale, making the Pony what is called a microbrewery.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

"Finger Food"? I have heard of it.
Did the Elves know Hobbits well enough to invite them on dinners?
Another question that has never been answered to me. What about wine? Wine contains alcohol. Did the Hobbits, Dwarves and Men really drink "alcohol"? Alcohol is prepared chemically, in Labs. Did people in Middle-Earth prepare it chemically? How?

Beer and wine have been around for thousands of years. Well before labs were ever invented. In fact, beer and wine are two of the three fundamentals of civilization; those, and prostitution.

[Smaug's voice]

There is significant evidence in the sil to suggest that elves regularly hunted and ate meat.
The only specification I think was for green elves who were veggies.
Or is my memory faulty?

[Aganzir]

To everyone who says elves didn't hunt for sport:

Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, The War of the Jewels, Quendi and Eldar, Appendix B. Elvish Names for the Dwarves.

The Eldar did not at first recognize [the Petty Dwarves] as Incarnates, for they seldom caught sight of them in clear light. (…) The Eldar therefore thought that they were a kind of cunning two-legged animals living in caves (…) and they hunted them. But after the Eldar had made the aquaintance of the Naugrim, [they] were recognized as a variety of Dwarves and were left alone. There were then few of them surviving.

I give you two options - either the elves did hunt for fun, or they ate dwarves.

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

And, Yes, I asked this question because in The Hobbit 1, Dwarves are NOT served meat.

Considering how rude the elves were in PJ's Hobbit, I wouldn't be surprised at all if serving 'lesser' food was just one more way to slight the dwarves. Now, being a (very flexible) vegetarian myself, I'm not calling veggie food lesser per se, but you have to admit that lettuce doesn't constitute much of a meal.

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

Did the Hobbits, Dwarves and Men really drink "alcohol"? Alcohol is prepared chemically, in Labs. Did people in Middle-Earth prepare it chemically? How?

My little brother brews the most amazing beer in his dorm's basement, which is hardly a lab.

[Nerwen]

Lotrelf, suggest you look up the various techniques of wine-making, beer-brewing etc.

Alcohol is certainly *not* a modern invention- to be honest, I'm really quite amazed that you could think so.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I give you two options - either the elves did hunt for fun, or they ate dwarves....

A little known fact about the elves is that "short order" cooks were in high demand. One of their specialties were Fili Mignon.

[Lotrelf]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

To everyone who says elves didn't hunt for sport:

I give you two options - either the elves did hunt for fun, or they ate dwarves.

They ate dwarves? I think that's Sauron's job to do- something that I already mentioned.

Considering how rude the elves were in PJ's Hobbit, I wouldn't be surprised at all if serving 'lesser' food was just one more way to slight the dwarves. Now, being a (very flexible) vegetarian myself, I'm not calling veggie food lesser per se, but you have to admit that lettuce doesn't constitute much of a meal.

More than the Elves I found dwarves were rude and mannerless. This is why I was too suprised to see them in the book. Though I didn't like their initial behaviour with Bilbo.

My little brother brews the most amazing beer in his dorm's basement, which is hardly a lab.

Cool! 8-)
That's all I can say.

[Tar-Jêx]

To put this question in different context; Are Germans sober?

A great deal many are, but there are also a great deal who stay in pubs and bars all day.
It's similar to asking whether humans are vegetarians. The response you get will be different depending on who you ask.

[Leaf]

Originally Posted by Tar-Jêx

To put this question in different context; Are Germans sober?

A great deal many are, but there are also a great deal who stay in pubs and bars all day.
It's similar to asking whether humans are vegetarians. The response you get will be different depending on who you ask.

I don't think that this analogy is very helpful. Elves are a literary concept and thus constructed in a certain way. This is especially important when it comes to a writer like Tolkien who seldom tried to write certain societies as diverse as a real society would be. On the contrary, the societies, people and persons in middle-earth are described in a mythological manner and can share the same properties. I guess one should not try to examine or explain middle-earth like it was real. Nonetheless I don't see vegetarianism as a commonly shared ideology among elves either. I guess it's a more recent fantasy trope (maybe even dating back to those LOTR readers/fans in the 60's; darn hippies!) that elves have to be
in total sync with nature, in every way.

[Tar-Jêx]

Originally Posted by Leaf

I don't think that this analogy is very helpful. Elves are a literary concept and thus constructed in a certain way. This is especially important when it comes to a writer like Tolkien who seldom tried to write certain societies as diverse as a real society would be. On the contrary, the societies, people and persons in middle-earth are described in a mythological manner and can share the same properties. I guess one should not try to examine or explain middle-earth like it was real. Nonetheless I don't see vegetarianism as a commonly shared ideology among elves either. I guess it's a more recent fantasy trope (maybe even dating back to those LOTR readers/fans in the 60's; darn hippies!) that elves have to be
in total sync with nature, in every way.

While the question is different, the nature of the answer is the same. It would depend entirely on the tribe of elves. I could see that higher class elves like Elrond would refrain from eating meats, but travelling elves would eat it just as much as a human would.

Questions which have cultural variables don't have one set answer.

[Leaf]

Originally Posted by Tar-Jêx

While the question is different, the nature of the answer is the same. It would depend entirely on the tribe of elves. I could see that higher class elves like Elrond would refrain from eating meats, but travelling elves would eat it just as much as a human would.

Questions which have cultural variables don't have one set answer.

Well, when it comes to Tolkien's writings many question with cultural variables have exactly one set answers. For instance: The dwarven societies are structured and characterized in the same way. They are outstanding craftsman and merchants. They stick with themselves and are secretive about their own cultur. I'm trying to explain that it wouldn't be out of line or surprising if all of Tolkien's elves shared the same attitude when it comes to eating meat. If you answer this question by simply refering to the diversity of people in the real world you're ignoring this. To give a proper and satisfactory answer we would have to examine the texts instead of projecting a realistic or logical view on the matter.

Your very examples show that this is a problem. The only elven tribe we could more or less) reasonably suspect to be all vegetarian are the Laiquendi, the evles of Ossiriand. The text hints that they have a problem with killing animals and yet they live scattered and withdram in the woods. Beren wandered and lived in the woods of Doriath for a very long time but he vowed not to eat animals. This doesn't make sense from a realistic point of view but from a literary or poetic one. The Noldor and Sindar, on the other hand, are civilised, wiser and by all means a higher class of elves and we do find great and prominent huntsman among them.