Why Sauron wants the Ring?

[Findegil]

But even follwoing the narrow definition Sauron has a good reason to get the One Ring back: not allowing anybudy else to use it against him. Sauron himself held at the end of the Thrid Age 12 Rings of Power: the Nine and 3 of the Seven. Some one trained enough in controlling the power of others and from his natural abbilty powerful enough using the One Ring might have been able to enslave Sauron himself rather quickly with some many Ring-connections to work with. Even if Sauron would have been able to protect himself in the same way as the Elven.Smith of Eregion did, he would have lost his controll over the Nazgûl and probably many of his Orks, as is seen by the one Ork frigthen away even by Sam using the Ring without any real controll.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[denethorthefirst]

Of course, Sauron wants the Ring back no matter what (even if only for Safety Reasons).
IF anybody mastered it, the effect on Sauron would be the same as if it was destroyed: he would become disconnected from his power in the Ring and be reduced to a powerless spirit. But that may have been only a hypothetical threat and if anybody could really master the Ring and supplant Sauron is another Question. Tolkien himself wrote in a Letter that only Gandalf might be expected to master it, but if he really could is debatable (i think not). There is also a difference between wielding and mastering: a sufficiently powerful Ainu (for example Saruman) or Elda (for example Galadriel) might be capable of wielding the Ring and use it to dominate others, raise Armies etc. but they could not master it and would certainly lose in the final confrontation against Sauron.

[jallanite]

denethorthefirst is quite right about at least some of the Dwarves participating in the War of the Last Alliance against Sauron. I had forgotten the mentions in Unfinished Tales. *My shame*

But I still disagree with denethorthefirst’s narrow definition:

The only function of the One Ring was to dominate (the bearers of) the other Rings of Power and to somehow enhance Saurons ability to dominate other wills.

My listing of various powers and abilities shown by the One Ring was to indicate that the One Rings shows powers not covered by this “narrow definition”.

I do not see that Sam’s listening in on the Orcs telepathically enables either Sam or Sauron to dominate the wills of those Orcs. The Orcs are not even bearers of other Rings of Power.

Throughout The Lord of the Rings we see several characters tempted to control the Ring, but no-one tempted by an increased desire to submit himself or herself to Sauron’s will. Gollum, Bilbo, Frodo, Galadriel, Boromir, Saruman, and even Sam, are tempted to take the Ring for themselves, to use against Sauron, which is surely not Sauron’s will. (Unless you wish to suggest that Sauron is transmitting a suggestion to the bearer of the One Ring to reveal himself [or herself] as a trick, as Sauron expected to quickly overcome whoever now had the Ring, once that was revealed. That would be possible in some cases, but not in most.)

Nor is their even a hint, I believe, that Sauron was using his will through the One Ring especially to defeat either Elendil or Isildur in the War of the Last Alliance. Isildur is in the end overcome by his desire for the One Ring itself, when Isildur first names it his “precious”.

The Ring gave Sauron, from its forging, more power, but Tolkien is vague on what powers it gave him. This vagueness veils the effectiveness of any discussion of this matter. Your attempt to distinguish between wielding the Ring and mastering the Ring is an example of this. You do not know, no more than I, whether the One Ring was used to raise Sauron’s armies in the Second Age any more that it was in the Third, so far as we are told.

It does seem that Sauron was on the verge of defeating Gondor and perhaps two of the Elven lands without the One Ring, except for such powers as served as an “anchor” to bring him back to life and at least to most of his former power. But how much Sauron’s power at the end of the Third Age was due to his former possession of the Ring we are not told. It may be that the possession of twelve of the Lesser Rings was quite a lot in its own right.

Note some readers find it odd that the One Ring is not even mentioned in the accounts of the Fall of Númenor save when the spirit of Sauron takes up again his great Ring in Barad-dûr after the drowning of Númenor. Had the One Ring not been with Sauron at all during his captivity in Númenor but hidden in Barad-dûr? Well, at least in Letter 211 of Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, Tolkien wrote:

Though reduced to ‘a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind’, I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended.

So this tells us that in this time and place Tolkien imagines that Sauron, without the One Ring, would have little special power to persuade, as perhaps we should imagine him at the end of the Third Age. Yet Sauron has somehow persuaded hoards of Easterlings and Southrons to join him. Presumably we are to imagine that much of the power that he had put into the One Ring had returned to him.

[denethorthefirst]

denethorthefirst is quite right about at least some of the Dwarves participating in the War of the Last Alliance against Sauron. I had forgotten the mentions in Unfinished Tales. *My shame*

But I still disagree with denethorthefirst’s narrow definition:
The only function of the One Ring was to dominate (the bearers of) the other Rings of Power and to somehow enhance Saurons ability to dominate other wills.
My listing of various powers and abilities shown by the One Ring was to indicate that the One Rings shows powers not covered by this “narrow definition”.

I do not see that Sam’s listening in on the Orcs telepathically enables either Sam or Sauron to dominate the wills of those Orcs. The Orcs are not even bearers of other Rings of Power.

Throughout The Lord of the Rings we see several characters tempted to control the Ring, but no-one tempted by an increased desire to submit himself or herself to Sauron’s will. Gollum, Bilbo, Frodo, Galadriel, Boromir, Saruman, and even Sam, are tempted to take the Ring for themselves, to use against Sauron, which is surely not Sauron’s will. (Unless you wish to suggest that Sauron is transmitting a suggestion to the bearer of the One Ring to reveal himself [or herself] as a trick, as Sauron expected to quickly overcome whoever now had the Ring, once that was revealed. That would be possible in some cases, but not in most.)

Nor is their even a hint, I believe, that Sauron was using his will through the One Ring especially to defeat either Elendil or Isildur in the War of the Last Alliance. Isildur is in the end overcome by his desire for the One Ring itself, when Isildur first names it his “precious”.

You seem to be misunderstanding or misreading what i wrote!

I already explained it:
The "narrow" definition states that the only (intended by Sauron when he forged it) powers of the one Ring are:
1. It allowed the bearer (Sauron at the time) to directly dominate the other Rings of Power (and their bearers) and
2. it also enhanced the bearers (Sauron at the time) ability to "intrude"/"read" (osanwe) and dominate other (non-ringbearer) wills (i.e. made it easier for him to break the barriers of unwill of persons that weren't wearing other rings of powers).
I dont like this definition (I favor the "broad" view of the Rings Powers), but it is completely supported by Tolkien!
These two functions of the One Ring are the ONLY directly mentioned powers of it (and all the powers you listed are covered by this "narrow" definition!)!

But: Sauron could only perform those two functions of the One Ring when he was in possession/control of it! (I think thats quite obvious! Thats why he wasn't able to dominate the other Rings of Power in the Third Age and the Elves were free to use their Three Rings in safety) He cant work through or control the One Ring from a distance, but he is still "connected" to his power within it and he is not "diminished" because of the loss of the One Ring (Letter 131).
Sauron is clearly not almighty: there are of course a lot of people in Middle-earth that are completely independent from him. For a lot of those the One Ring is tempting: it fills the mind of others with delusions of grandeur (Boromir, Galadriel, even Sam!). But i think that was an unintended side-effect of the One Ring: the Power that Sauron put in the Ring was so great that it had a "seducing" effect on lesser beings. I dont think thats something Sauron intended: he probably never thought he would lose it!

I NEVER wrote that the second function of the One Ring (the ability to more easily read/dominate other minds) worked only with other ring-bearers!
Sam, even though he is not trained, is able, when he is wearing the One Ring (and according to his own innate power), to "intrude"/"read" the mind of weaker wills (the orcs).
Tolkien also wrote in a letter that it was the One Ring that helped Sauron to easier dominate and manipulate the Numenoreans (almost an entire people!).
Other people besides Sauron could use the Ring, according to their own innate Power, even if they are not able to completely master it. For example: while Sam is able to access a tiny part of the Rings Power with respect to the lesser Orcs, he couldn't dominate the Three Ringbearers (Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond) and he would surely fail if he tried, with the help of the One Ring, to break the barriers of unwill of a more powerful non-ringbearer (like for example Denethor II).

Nor is their even a hint, I believe, that Sauron was using his will through the One Ring especially to defeat either Elendil or Isildur in the War of the Last Alliance. Isildur is in the end overcome by his desire for the One Ring itself, when Isildur first names it his “precious”.

Of course Sauron used the One Ring in the War of the last Alliance, but Gil-Galad, Isildur, and especially Elendil were exceptional beings that had a lot of willpower and they resisted his efforts - i never wrote that the One Ring was somehow almighty. It allowed Sauron to better break the barriers of unwill and dominate/intrude other minds, but even while he was successfully doing that during his stay in Numenor, at least some (the Faithful) were resisting him!
We also have to take into account that the actual direct contact Elendil, Isildur and Gil-Galad had with Sauron was limited - and they resisted him successfully during that limited time! They might not have been able to resist his willpower for a prolonged period of time if, for example, Sauron had captured and (mentally) tortured them.

Note some readers find it odd that the One Ring is not even mentioned in the accounts of the Fall of Númenor save when the spirit of Sauron takes up again his great Ring in Barad-dûr after the drowning of Númenor. Had the One Ring not been with Sauron at all during his captivity in Númenor but hidden in Barad-dûr? Well, at least in Letter 211 of Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, Tolkien wrote:
Though reduced to ‘a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind’, I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended.
So this tells us that in this time and place Tolkien imagines that Sauron, without the One Ring, would have little special power to persuade, as perhaps we should imagine him at the end of the Third Age. Yet Sauron has somehow persuaded hoards of Easterlings and Southrons to join him. Presumably we are to imagine that much of the power that he had put into the One Ring had returned to him.

Of course Sauron had the One Ring with him in Numenor (Tolkien himself says so), it was a part of him and he would never separate willingly from it.
You're wondering why Sauron is able, without the One Ring, to command Easterlings and Southrons. Sauron was simply manipulating them (like any sly politician would). We have to remember that those people are on a rather primitive cultural level; i think it was relatively easy for Sauron to manipulate them into thinking that he was some kind of God. He also laid the Groundwork and Foundation of his Third Age Rule in the Second Age (when he had the Ring).
But the notion that Sauron somehow transferred (or "got back") large parts of his power from the One Ring during the Third Age (even though he wasnt in posession???) is completely "un-tolkien" and not supported by the text!

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by denethorthefirst

You're wondering why Sauron is able, without the One Ring, to command Easterlings and Southrons. Sauron was simply manipulating them (like any sly politician would). We have to remember that those people are on a rather primitive cultural level; i think it was relatively easy for Sauron to manipulate them into thinking that he was some kind of God. He also laid the Groundwork and Foundation of his Third Age Rule in the Second Age (when he had the Ring).

Keep in mind also that at least in the case of the Easterlings, they had been allied with Morgoth since the First Age battles, and would have no doubt at least known of Sauron's status as his second-in-command. After Morgoth's fall, it wouldn't have been difficult for Sauron to have assumed the position of their overlord, especially if he promised to help them defeat and plunder the West, which they hated.

[IxnaY AintsaY]

Originally Posted by jallanite

Throughout The Lord of the Rings we see several characters tempted to control the Ring, but no-one tempted by an increased desire to submit himself or herself to Sauron’s will.

It does look to me like there's an (as far as I know) isolated hint of this on Amon Hen: "[Frodo] heard himself crying out: Never, never! Or was it: Verily I come, I come to you? He could not tell."

[denethorthefirst]

Originally posted by Jallanite:

Throughout The Lord of the Rings we see several characters tempted to control the Ring, but no-one tempted by an increased desire to submit himself or herself to Sauron’s will. Gollum, Bilbo, Frodo, Galadriel, Boromir, Saruman, and even Sam, are tempted to take the Ring for themselves, to use against Sauron, which is surely not Sauron’s will. (Unless you wish to suggest that Sauron is transmitting a suggestion to the bearer of the One Ring to reveal himself [or herself] as a trick, as Sauron expected to quickly overcome whoever now had the Ring, once that was revealed. That would be possible in some cases, but not in most.)

I NEVER wrote that the (from Sauron disconnected) One Ring somehow "tempted" or otherwise made people want to submit to Sauron - i have no idea how Jallanite came to that conclusion by reading my posts. The One Ring "manipulates" (metaphorically speaking since it has no will of its own) the desires of other people (thats why it leads to delusions of grandeur - almost like a drug induced state of euphoria caused by the enormous power thats inside the ring) - but submitting to Sauron as a slave of his, thats not a desire, nobody wishes that.
(That could also be the reason why the Ring has no power over and cannot tempt Bombadil: he has no desires - he exists in an almost zen-like state of fulfillment and the Ring has nothing to play on or to "offer" him; however that does not mean that Bombadil could master the Ring or is more powerful than the Ring.)
But: it could be possible that the "wish" (again, metaphorically speaking) of the Ring to return to its master maybe somehow affected/influenced, on a subconscious level, people that were tempted by it or wore it, and the Amon Hen Episode that Ixnay posted seems to point in that direction.

[denethorthefirst]

Originally posted by Jallanite:

I do not see that Sam’s listening in on the Orcs telepathically enables either Sam or Sauron to dominate the wills of those Orcs. The Orcs are not even bearers of other Rings of Power.

Although i still dont understand why you include Sauron in your Statement ... You are right that Sam did not actually dominate the Orcs with the help of the One Ring.
But: he took the necessary first step, he "intruded" their mind. The One Ring seemed to somehow enhance the powers of Osanwe the respective bearer had. Sam, as a Hobbit (and a naturally incarnate being), has a very limited innate capability of Osanwe. But (with the help of the ring) he is able to somewhat read the mind of the orcs. Now I would speculate that Sam has a stronger Will than the run of the mill low-life snaga that has been put down his entire life - i think its entirely possible that even a Hobbit like Sam (quite low-ranking on the Arda-powerscale) would after a little training be capable, when wearing the One Ring, to dominate the will of minor orcs like that in a direct confrontation.
But maybe the episode with Sam in Cirith Ungol isnt the best example to use ... Tolkien does not state directly that it was the Ring that made it possible for Sam to understand the Orcs, its possible that they were speaking an Orc-Slang of Westron and Sam only thought he could understand them because of the Ring.
(The second instance is also problematic because Sam is not actually wearing but merely "grabbing" the Ring - maybe Saurons contained power "emanated" from it and gave Sam some sort of "Aura". Quote: "For what it (the orc) saw was not a small frightened hobbit trying to hold a steady sword: it saw a great silent shape, cloaked in a grey shadow, looming against the wavering light behind; in one hand it held a sword, the very light of which was a bitter pain, the other was clutched at its breast, but held concealed some nameless menace of power and doom." It seems that the orc was afraid of the Ring.)

[IxnaY AintsaY]

Originally Posted by denethorthefirst

Originally posted by Jallanite:

But: it could be possible that the "wish" (again, metaphorically speaking) of the Ring to return to its master maybe somehow affected/influenced, on a subconscious level, people that were tempted by it or wore it, and the Amon Hen Episode that Ixnay posted seems to point in that direction.

Tom Shippey speculated that "Verily I come..." could even be the voice of the Ring itself.