Why not Sam as an 'Elf-friend'? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

William Cloud Hicklin · 07-26-2014, 11:47 AM

Neither Pippin nor Merry received the title, at least so far as we're told. Sam's later honors seem to parallel thirs more: they become Thain and Master, he becomes Mayor, and all 3 offices are made Councillors of the North-Kingdom; Merry and Pippin are knights of the Mark and Gondor, Sam becomes a knight of Arnor.

Pervinca Took · 07-26-2014, 12:06 PM

Tolkien was sparing with the giving of titles, I think, and they are more powerful as a result. Frodo and Sam are honoured equally on the Field Of Cormallen (although the song appears to be titled to Frodo alone - well, to him and the Ring) - and both are called "Princes of the West." So I think Sam is given plenty of honour in the book in general - not to mention being "The most famous gardener in all history." Elvishness is a part of Frodo's essence - and part of why Sam loves him so much. They are both heroes, but they are individuals, however inseparable. Sam has his particular honours and Frodo has his, too. It would weaken or trivialise both to make it seem they were given with too free a hand.

Galadriel55 · 07-26-2014, 07:27 PM

Sam's love and fascination with Elves is more child-like, uncomprehensive, than Frodo's almost equality with the Elves. I believe that is the main difference. And Elf-friend, in my opinion, is not someone who is in awe of them, or loves them, or who has carried the Ring, or anything else really - but someone not of the Elves who could have been one. Frodo is indirectly likened to Elves throughout LOTR - both in his physically and metaphysically. Sam doesn't really qualify. He's a true hobbit.

Faramir Jones · 07-29-2014, 05:06 AM

I agree with Galadriel55, that Bilbo and Frodo have more of an equal relationship with the Elves, unlike Sam's more childlike one. I believe that this difference is marked by Frodo and Bilbo knowing Elvish languages, certainly Sindarian and at least a fair knowlege of Quenya.

We all know of the importance Tolkien attached to languages; so it would be fair to assume that he might think a person would only have some sort of equal relationship to another people if he or she had some proper knowlege of their culture, which would be inextricably linked to their language.

This can be seen among non-hobbits, where Gandalf and Aragorn II are able to deal with the Rohirrim due to knowledge of their culture, including in particular their language.

07-26-2014, 11:47 AM	#1
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	Neither Pippin nor Merry received the title, at least so far as we're told. Sam's later honors seem to parallel thirs more: they become Thain and Master, he becomes Mayor, and all 3 offices are made Councillors of the North-Kingdom; Merry and Pippin are knights of the Mark and Gondor, Sam becomes a knight of Arnor. __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

07-26-2014, 12:06 PM	#2
Pervinca Took Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: The Treetops, C/O Great Smials Posts: 5,035	Tolkien was sparing with the giving of titles, I think, and they are more powerful as a result. Frodo and Sam are honoured equally on the Field Of Cormallen (although the song appears to be titled to Frodo alone - well, to him and the Ring) - and both are called "Princes of the West." So I think Sam is given plenty of honour in the book in general - not to mention being "The most famous gardener in all history." Elvishness is a part of Frodo's essence - and part of why Sam loves him so much. They are both heroes, but they are individuals, however inseparable. Sam has his particular honours and Frodo has his, too. It would weaken or trivialise both to make it seem they were given with too free a hand. __________________ "Sit by the firelight's glow; tell us an old tale we know. Tell of adventures strange and rare; never to change, ever to share! Stories we tell will cast their spell, now and for always." Last edited by Pervinca Took; 07-27-2014 at 11:58 AM.

07-26-2014, 07:27 PM	#3
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,497	Sam's love and fascination with Elves is more child-like, uncomprehensive, than Frodo's almost equality with the Elves. I believe that is the main difference. And Elf-friend, in my opinion, is not someone who is in awe of them, or loves them, or who has carried the Ring, or anything else really - but someone not of the Elves who could have been one. Frodo is indirectly likened to Elves throughout LOTR - both in his physically and metaphysically. Sam doesn't really qualify. He's a true hobbit. __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera

07-29-2014, 05:06 AM	#4
Faramir Jones Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Lonely Isle Posts: 706	He doesn't speak the language(s) I agree with Galadriel55, that Bilbo and Frodo have more of an equal relationship with the Elves, unlike Sam's more childlike one. I believe that this difference is marked by Frodo and Bilbo knowing Elvish languages, certainly Sindarian and at least a fair knowlege of Quenya. We all know of the importance Tolkien attached to languages; so it would be fair to assume that he might think a person would only have some sort of equal relationship to another people if he or she had some proper knowlege of their culture, which would be inextricably linked to their language. This can be seen among non-hobbits, where Gandalf and Aragorn II are able to deal with the Rohirrim due to knowledge of their culture, including in particular their language.

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