Gandalf, Moria, and Arrest

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Is this a serious question?

Gandalf was the accepted leader not only of the Fellowship, but as far as Aragorn was concerned, the struggle against Sauron. Aragorn had been a pupil and friend of Gandalf for many years. He questioned the decision to go to Moria both out of a personal bad memory of a prior journey, and a foreboding that Gandalf would meet some peril there. His reluctance was not based on any lack of faith in Gandalf as a leader or a guide.

And also, by what authority could an "arrest" have been made? That's lunacy. At most, any member of the company who wished was free to stop following Gandalf and go their own way. It's notable that none did so. Gandalf retained their trust even under the direst of circumstances.

I believe every member of the Company, including Frodo, were against taking the road into Moria. Even Celeborn thought this road was folly and needless. Aragorn, as future King of Gondor, had as much authority to arrest Gandalf as anyone. The only thing that mattered was the safety of the Ring. Your ''lunacy'' comment was offensive, but that is just you. The path into Moria was seen as lunacy by others. Aragorn even warned Gandalf that this choice could lead to his own doom, which it did. Had Gandalf known of the Balrog, he would not have chosen this road.

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Aragorn, as future King of Gondor, had as much authority to arrest Gandalf as anyone.

Which is to say, none.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Which is to say, none.

The fate of the Ring was the only thing that mattered. Aragorn could have declared that as of now he makes all the decisions and will lead the Company elsewhere, and not through Moria. He may have had no legal power to have Gandalf arrested at the gate of Moria, but that would have changed once he was sworn in as King of Gondor.

[Belegorn]

Even if they wanted to, none of them would be able to arrest Gandalf. None were forced to follow Gandalf.

[Formendacil]

Let's imagine, for one absurdly out-of-character second, that Aragorn WOULD have considered "arresting Gandalf" and/or asserting himself as the mutinous new leader of the company. Even had he already become King of Gondor and Arnor, or had the quest somehow waited until he was, this would still, as Aiwendil so succinctly put it, none of the authority required to arrest Gandalf.

Authority, never mind the actual ability.

Gandalf was a subject of neither the Kingdom of Arnor nor Gondor, over which Aragorn's writ extended. He was, in point of fact, an emissary of the Valar, which, if we continue this line of thought, still leaves him a foreign national--and a foreign national rather in the diplomatic service.

Beyond this, when at the walls of Moria, the company was not in the realms of Gondor or Arnor. Depending on where one draws the exact line, they were either still in Hollin or they were across the threshold into Moria. If one takes the first position, which I incline towards, then they were in what was essentially noman's land.

I seem to recall it being suggested (I cannot recall the text--possibly the Epilogue?) that, by his marriage to Arwen, Aragorn's heirs would inherit the remaining tracts of land still belonging to the High Elves in Middle-earth, namely Lindon, Rivendell, and Eregion (all under the possession of the House of Finwë, which would be remain solely represented in her heirs after the passing of Elrond, Galadriel, and the eventually death/passing of Elladan and Elrohir).

However, this had not happened at the time of the Fellowship. Hollin was still, at that time, a vacant kingdom under either the nominal lordship of the Heir of Celebrimbor (presumably Elrond, the next-of-kin as the nearest descendent of Fingolfin, who was Fëanor's heir after the exhaustion of his own line) or would have been kingdomless, but part of the greater domains of the High King of Eldar (depending on the tradition one accepts for Gil-galad's parentage, either Elrond or Galadriel). Either way, it is clear from the officially defined boundaries of Arnor--themselves not set until half an Age after the fall of Eregion, that Hollin was considered beyond-the-borders of Arnor, and thus outside the law of her king.

If, however, we stretch the borders of Khazad-dûm beyond the doors to include the doorstep, Aragorn is STILL not king of that land, and even less likely to rule it, since I don't think he was going to be a polygamous king with a second consort wedded to the only daughter of Thorin III (and that's assuming that Dwarves can inherit through the female line--people seem to assume this of Fíli and Kíli, but I don't recall it ever saying in any text that Thorin Oakenshield's sister-sons were the Heirs of the Durin after him).

Gimli, perhaps, as the ranking Dwarf (in all Moria, though they did not know it) could have done so, but we all know that he was on Gandalf's side for going IN to Moria.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Even if they wanted to, none of them would be able to arrest Gandalf. None were forced to follow Gandalf.

To be frank, I always thought Tolkein wanted the journey through Moria for the excitement factor, much more than the endless trekking on land like in the Hobbit. He was prepared to put Gandalf's own reputation on the line to ensure that the Company did go though Moria, and not via other safer means.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Let's imagine, for one absurdly out-of-character second, that Aragorn WOULD have considered "arresting Gandalf" and/or asserting himself as the mutinous new leader of the company. Even had he already become King of Gondor and Arnor, or had the quest somehow waited until he was, this would still, as Aiwendil so succinctly put it, none of the authority required to arrest Gandalf.

Authority, never mind the actual ability.

Had it got to a heated argument (which it almost did) between Aragorn and Gandalf on taking the road to Moria, Aragorn could have made the case that he was putting the fate of the quest in great peril, and that he would take over the leadership if Gandalf did not back down. Supposing Gandalf did not back down, then Aragorn may have stated that once sworn in as King of Gondor he would not forget this encounter and would press charges on Gandalf on grounds of placing the fate of Middle Earth at risk (i.e. treason).

This charge would be far fetched to execute, especially if the Company did just fine in Moria, but nevertheless that is what the Moonraker likes, to stretch the realms of possibility to the limits.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Aragorn could have made the case that he was putting the fate of the quest in great peril

Aragorn already made the case that he himself had already put them all in great peril and Gandalf did not even use it against him.

Originally Posted by FotR, bk. 2, ch. 4

You followed my lead almost to disaster in the snow, and have said no word of blame.

Recall what happened so that debate was halted.

Originally Posted by Aragorn cried out in dismay.

The Wargs have come west of the Mountains!

So Gandalf's argument was already coming to pass. They should not go on longer watched roads. Already they were set upon and they were not even making for the Gap of Rohan!

Originally Posted by Gandalf to the Company

The hunt is up! Even if we live to see the dawn, who now will wish to journey south by night with the wild wolves on his tail?

Wolves, orcs, birds watching the land, and even Saruman was out and about. So imagine that they are beset in the south by Orcs and Wargs and out comes Saruman as he did before when Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas were in the south searching for Merry and Pippin.

Originally Posted by TTT, Bk. 3, chs. 2, 5

Gimli looked up, and there just on the edge of the firelight stood an old bent man, leaning on a staff, and wrapped in a great cloak; his wide-brimmed hat was pulled down over his eyes. <...> You certainly did not see me <...> therefore I must guess that you saw Saruman.

Saruman has armies and is himself a Maia as Gandalf noted, "reckoned as a lord and captain Saruman has grown very strong." [TTT, ch. 5, p. 119] Should they make south, as Boromir wished, they would not only lengthen their journey and have greater preparations made for their capture, but they would already be on the run from the Enemy by night and by day.

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Moria was never going to be the safest option in any case

If you choose to assume the Balrog and his band of Orcs are a greater threat than Saruman and his armies who're looking for the Ring.

Originally Posted by Moonraker

They could have called on the help of the Eagles for safe passage to Lorien

So far as I know the Eagles were not simply called upon to do Gandalf or anyone else's bidding.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

If you choose to assume the Balrog and his band of Orcs are a greater threat than Saruman and his armies who're looking for the Ring.

The Balrog was the deadliest of the elf banes, save Sauron himself, as Legolas put it. So in this context, Gandalf would not have wished an encounter with a deadlier Maiar such as the Balrog of Morgoth than Saruman or the Witch King. The Company were also beset with other dangers, such as trolls, uruks, Gollum, and the uncertain dark path through the maze of Moria that may have had a dead end to trap them. Wolves or no wolves, Moria was not a safer option.

I cannot imagine Elrond supporting the road through Moria either. I seem to imagine him saying something like, ''I do not call this good counsel. Moria is a dark and unknown quantity to us, and we have no certainty that there is a way out of that accursed realm''. Sounds similar to what Aragorn said. If I was just an ordinary man or hobbit, I would not have followed Gandalf into Moria.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

If you choose to assume the Balrog and his band of Orcs are a greater threat than Saruman and his armies who're looking for the Ring.

No one knew that there was a Balrog in Moria, however. They knew that there was something but not what it was.

Originally Posted by Moonraker

They could have called on the help of the Eagles for safe passage to Lorien.

Originally Posted by Belegorn

So far as I know the Eagles were not simply called upon to do Gandalf or anyone else's bidding.

Moreover, how could Gandalf have simply "called on the help of the Eagles"? The only reason Gwaihir came to Isengard was because Radagast sent him. Later, around the time of the Council of Elrond, Radagast had disappeared. So I don't see how the Eagles were an option out in the wilderness. They appeared at other times when they were sent by someone else who had access to them.

As was established by Elrond, no one was under any obligation to do anything except Frodo himself, so I don't see how trying to force the issue by coercing Gandalf would have achieved anything. Wouldn't Aragorn "arresting" Gandalf (as implausible as the notion is in itself) have completely contradicted the fact that in the end it was Frodo who really had the final say in what happened?

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

So in this context, Gandalf would not have wished an encounter with a deadlier Maiar such as the Balrog of Morgoth than Saruman or the Witch King.

They did not know of a Balrog being in Moria. Both Aragorn and Gandalf had passed through Moria without encountering the Balrog before.

Originally Posted by FotR, Bk. 2, ch. 4

Yet it will not be the first time that I have been to Moria. I sought there long for Thráin son of Thrór after he was lost.

<...>

I too once passed the Dimrill Gate, but though I also came out again, the memory is very evil. I do not wish to enter Moria a second time.

I do not think in any case that Aragorn's beef is to not pass through Moria to avoid facing the Balrog. He did not know what was there, nor do I expect he thought such a being was living in the halls of Moria.

You say that, "the most important decision made as to how the Ring may be protected." Yet Aragorn seems to be placing his concern for Gandalf over the Ring in this instance when it concerned a possible route through Moria.

Originally Posted by FotR, Bk. 2, ch. 4

It is not of the Ring, nor of us others that I am thinking now, but of you, Gandalf.

Gandalf told the Company "I would not lead you into Moria if there were no hope of coming out again." [p. 354] This was in the context of Boromir having compared Moria to a stronghold of Sauron. Gandalf had no inkling so far as I know that it was a stronghold of the Balrog, nor did anyone else. Take note of his speculations:

Originally Posted by FotR, Bk. 2, ch. 4

But most of the Orcs of the Misty Mountains were scattered or destroyed in the Battle of Five Armies. The Eagles report that Orcs are gathering again from afar; but there is a hope that Moria is still free.

There is even a chance that Dwarves are there, and that in some deep hall of his fathers, Balin son of Fundin may be found.

What he thought was possible was that Moria could be free from a plague of Orcs based on certain reports he was given and that Dwarves could be there. Gandalf wanted to go under the Mountains to cover their tracks and he thought it would be the least expected route the Enemy would consider them taking.

Originally Posted by Moonraker

I doubt Gwaihir would have refused to help Gandalf, having saved him twice before

Help indeed, but recall the conversation between Gandalf and Gwaihir when the former had need of a ride after having been saved from Orthanc.

Originally Posted by FotR, Bk. 2, ch. 2

'How far can you bear me?"

"Many leagues," said he, "but not to the ends of the earth. I was sent to bear tidings not burdens."

"Then I must have a steed on land<...> for I have never had such a need of haste before."

"Then I will bear you to Edoras<...>for that is not very far off."

In the end, Frodo's journey would lead to Mordor anyway, the stronghold of Sauron, but you would have Gandalf arrested for deciding to lead them through Moria. "I would not lead you into Moria if there were no hope of coming out again." [p. 354] said Gandalf. There were concerns about Moria, but it would be a means to disappear from off the grid.

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Aragorn had a duty to protect the Ring

The job was ultimately Frodo's. The others were in the Company until they came to their respective destinations, the two Dúnedain to Gondor for instance. Elrond said "I will choose you companions to go with you , as far as they will or fortune allows <...> They are willing to go at least to the passes of the Mountains, and maybe beyond." [FotR, ch. 3, p. 330] Aragorn was going to help aid in the wars of Gondor.

Originally Posted by Moonraker

They may as well have been escorted by a large army to Lorien if there was no hope of secrecy.

Elrond claimed "your hope is in speed and secrecy." [p. 330] which may also account for Gandalf's choice to take the road of Moria, as it cut through the mountains and the Enemy would hardly be expecting it.

Originally Posted by FotR, Bk. 2, ch. 4

I thought from the beginning, when I first considered this journey, that we should try it. ~ Gandalf

Speed and secrecy was the way to go. No protracted journey, loud and blustering, "The Company took little gear of war, for their hope was in secrecy not in battle." [Ch. 3, p. 334]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Was Frodo really in charge of the fate of the Ring? He was only the Ring bearer, not the leader of the Company.

I think Elrond's final charge to Frodo may be of some help.

Originally Posted by The Ring Goes South; Elrond's charge to Frodo

The Ring-bearer is setting out on the Quest of Mount Doom. On him alone is any charge laid; neither to cast away the Ring, nor to deliver it to any servant of the Enemy nor indeed to let any handle it, save members of the Company and the Council, and only then in gravest need. The others go with him as free companions, to help him on his way. You may tarry, or come back, or turn aside into other paths, as chance allows. The further you go, the less easy will it be to withdraw; yet no oath or bond is laid on you to go further than you will.

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Gandalf, being a powerful Maiar, may have had full confidence in confronting the horrors of Moria, but none of the others (save Gimli) did and would have not gone in but for the wolves.

Do you remember that chapter in The Hobbit titled, Out of the Frying-pan into the Fire? This seems like what you are suggesting they decided to do. Flee Wolves to face the Balrog and his horde of Orcs in Moria.

"Wolves or Balrog? I'd rather take my chances with that Balrog. To Moria!"

Originally Posted by Moonraker

I seem to imagine him saying something like

He did say, "I can foresee very little of your road; and how your task is to be achieved I do not know." [Ch. 3, p. 330]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

No one knew that there was a Balrog in Moria, however. They knew that there was something but not what it was.

Agreed. Gandalf did not even know it was a Balrog when they engaged each other on opposite sides of a door in Moria! [pp. 387-388]

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

I believe every member of the Company, including Frodo, were against taking the road into Moria. Even Celeborn thought this road was folly and needless.

Celeborn may have thought so, but Galadriel admonished him nevertheless.

Originally Posted by FotR, Bk. 2, ch. 7

He would be rash indeed that said that thing <...> Needless were none of the deeds of Gandalf in life.

Let us go back to what happened. Gandalf recalled that "Aragorn was against it, until the pass over the mountains had at least been tried." [ch. 4] They tried and they failed. Boromir suggested they go south by the Gap of Rohan but Gandalf told him that as long as the Ring was with them they could not because there was Saruman in waiting. Besides, when Boromir compared Moria to a stronghold of Sauron Gandalf admonished him in the following manner:

Originally Posted by FotR, bk. 2, ch. 4, p. 354

I alone of you have ever been in the dungeons of the Dark Lord, and only in his older and lesser dwelling in Dol Guldur. Those who pass the gates of Barad-dûr do not return.

He would not lead them into Moria if there was no way out. Even though he did not make it, he got them out in the end. Gimli was not averse to going through Moria, though Aragorn and Boromir were. However, Gandalf said it best I think.

Originally Posted by Gandalf to the Company

the question is: who will follow me, if I lead you there?

Aragorn pointedly replied, "You followed my lead almost to disaster in the snow, and have said no word of blame."

Originally Posted by Moonraker

not via other safer means

But were the other, watched ways, really safer?

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

But were the other, watched ways, really safer?

All roads were being watched, so Moria was never going to be the safest option in any case. Gimli was not against going to Moria, but he was biased as a dwarf to want to go there for personal reasons (Balin, Mithril, the legend of Moria etc), and not for reasons in context of the quest.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

All roads were being watched, so Moria was never going to be the safest option in any case. Gimli was not against going to Moria, but he was biased as a dwarf to want to go there for personal reasons (Balin, Mithril, the legend of Moria etc), and not for reasons in context of the quest.

But there was the possibility of Dwarves from Erebor still being in Moria. What's better, the potential at least for some friendly faces, or a long trek through the wilderness that took one nearer and nearer to Isengard?

If there had been a better way to go, Aragorn would have suggested one. Boromir's alternatives were logically shot down, leaving Moria the best option.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

If there had been a better way to go, Aragorn would have suggested one. Boromir's alternatives were logically shot down, leaving Moria the best option.

They could have called on the help of the Eagles for safe passage to Lorien. Also, Rivendell had steeds available that the Nine could not rival. Not that Tolkein would have wanted that, it would have killed the story, and the plot.