Gandalf, Moria, and Arrest

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Basically one important point regarding this whole thing -

- the main point of the quest with the Ring was to destroy Sauron not by power; it was a manifestation of rejecting any form of control. Starting to arrest people or exercising any form of control would be totally against the spirit of the whole "operation" and what the Free People stood for, or what they decided they were standing for.

So from that also follows, if we go down the line of talking about arrest, Aragorn should have first arrested Elrond and co. for deciding on such a ridiculous plan and putting the Ring into unnecessary risk by sending it to Mordor in the first place. Arguments had been put forward on the Council, making it clear that it was an incredibly risky option, and if there ever was a time for arresting someone, it might just as well been there. If Aragorn had been up to claiming his kingly power and arresting people for treason or endangering the fate of Middle-Earth, he would have probably agreed with Saruman the same way Boromir did at the Council: the best course is to claim the Ring, or at least keep it hidden. The madmen who wanted to run with it right into the heart of Sauron's realm should be arrested, in terms of public safety, to prevent them from doing anything crazy that could have cost the lives of thousands.

Elrond did not make the decision alone to send the Ring to Mordor, that was also the decision made by Aragorn and Gandalf, and in principle even Boromir agreed (though in his mind he obviously had reservations). An arrest could only be even considered if somebody within the company committed what could widely be agreed as mutiny or treason, and not just because Denethor only wanted the Ring hidden in Minas Tirith. Bormomir ultimately did commit treason to the cause of the quest, and Saruman before him. Gandalf was pushing the patience of Aragorn and Bormomir to the limits in suggesting that Moria was the route they should take. Gandalf even wanted to take this route from the off, which Aragorn overruled.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

What is more, surely Elrond and Cirdan should have arrested Isildur and forced him to destroy the ring. To reference another thread, this is a n aspect where understanding of Tolkien's Catholicism may be useful. It is about free will and it's proper exercise, not imposing and enforcing laws and hierachy.

Isildur could indeed have been put on trial for not getting the job done of destroying the Ring. But having the willpower in sending the Ring into the fire, as everyone knows, is easier said than done. He would have been pardoned.

Originally Posted by Belegorn

All 14 of them were already trapped before the orcs got there. So Gandalf with 12 Dwarves and a Hobbit were already out of the frying pan and into the fire before the orcs got there. You ask if the wolves stand a chance against Gandalf, the wolves had Gandalf trapped when orcs were not there, and Gandalf was not alone, he had 13 companions with him. So yes, I do think the wolves stood a chance against him.

I get the feeling in the Hobbit Tolkein doesn't bill Gandalf as a Maiar, only a wizard, who could indeed be harmed by ordinary weapons.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Gandalf was pushing the patience of Aragorn and Bormomir to the limits in suggesting that Moria was the route they should take. Gandalf even wanted to take this route from the off.

But the reluctance of Aragorn and Boromir was in neither case a reflection of a lack of confidence in Gandalf. Boromir simply knew Moria as a name of ill repute, and preferred a route that was more known to him and would get him to Gondor faster.

Aragorn's fear was for Gandalf, not the Quest in general.

'I will follow your lead now--if this last warning does not move you. It is not of the Ring, nor of us others that I am thinking now, but of you, Gandalf. And I say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware!'

FOTR A Journey In the Dark

There was no thought that Moria would put the Ring in any particular danger, no more than it was already. So Gandalf had done absolutely nothing that would warrant "arrest", or even choosing a new leader.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

But the reluctance of Aragorn and Boromir was in neither case a reflection of a lack of confidence in Gandalf. Boromir simply knew Moria as a name of ill repute, and preferred a route that was more known to him and would get him to Gondor faster.

Aragorn's fear was for Gandalf, not the Quest in general.

FOTR A Journey In the Dark

There was no thought that Moria would put the Ring in any particular danger, no more than it was already. So Gandalf had done absolutely nothing that would warrant "arrest", or even choosing a new leader.

I think Tolkein made an error here. He is implying that Aragorn can forsee Gandalf's doom by entering Moria, when in reality it is more likely that any of the Company were in greater peril, not having any supernatural powers themselves. If Aragorn knew Gandalf was a Maiar, why would he forecast his doom?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

I think Tolkein made an error here.

Now your questioning the omniscience of the author regarding his plot and his intentions?

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Now your questioning the omniscience of the author regarding his plot and his intentions?

Tolkien was the first to admit his work had faults in it.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Mouthmoron, Tolkein was the first to admit his work had faults in it.

I question the sincerity of your posts here. By the way, his name is spelled Tolkien,
T-o-l-k-i-e-n. You've made that error a few times. But that is not surprising.

P.S. The namecalling is rather sophomoric, but apt for the type of poster you are.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

I think Tolkein made an error here. He is implying that Aragorn can forsee Gandalf's doom by entering Moria, when in reality it is more likely that any of the Company were in greater peril, not having any supernatural powers themselves. If Aragorn knew Gandalf was a Maiar, why would he forecast his doom?

If you're going to say Tolkien was wrong, and use that to bolster your point, there's no need in discussing this further.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

If you're going to say Tolkien was wrong, and use that to bolster your point, there's no need in discussing this further.

Only an opinion. But if he was right in allowing Aragorn the ability to express such accurate foresight, I would want to know how it was possible. He only spoke for the ill fortune of Gandalf, and no other member of the Company.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Only an opinion.

One without foundation, particularly since Tolkien did not subsequently edit or offer another later version of the sequence. Since there is no alternate storyline, the idea that Tolkien was wrong in what he wrote is inane; in any case, the author is never wrong, even if he changes his mind. The story is his to alter.

Originally Posted by Moonraker

But if he was right in allowing Aragorn the ability to express such accurate foresight, I would want to know how it was possible.

Foresight, providence and prescience are hallmarks of the books. The foretelling of dooms runs from the early 1st Age through the end of the 3rd Age, from the Dooms of Mandos all the way to Saruman's curse of Frodo. I suggest you read further.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

One without foundation, particularly since Tolkien did not subsequently edit or offer another later version of the sequence. Since there is no alternate storyline, the idea that Tolkien was wrong in what he wrote is inane; in any case, the author is never wrong, even if he changes his mind. The story is his to alter.



Foresight, providence and prescience are hallmarks of the books. The foretelling of dooms runs from the early 1st Age through the end of the 3rd Age, from the Dooms of Mandos all the way to Saruman's curse of Frodo. I suggest you read further.

The question remains unanswered. How did Aragorn foretell the imminent doom of a powerful Maiar, one that even the Nine Nazgul could not get past? He had been to Moria before, but did he have any news of an ancient terror dwelling there? This goes way past the level of accuracy of Glorfindel's prediction on the fate of the Witch-king, which took a very long time to fulfil.

[Corsair_Caruso]

Other people have addressed the issue of Aragorn's ability to make an arrest, but I'd also like to throw in my two-cents. Before he was crowned as King of Gondor and Arnor, he had zero authority except over those who swore allegiance to him. He was the Chieftain of the Dunedain, and as such, the Dunedain of the North owed him allegiance, but he claimed to ability to command or exercise authority beyond those people, not even the lands which his ancestors ruled, but merely those who counted themselves as his subjects. He did not exercise lordship over the Shire, over the the human settlements in the former territories of Arnor, but merely over the Dunedain who gave themselves over to his command.

Had he attempted to exercise authority over any land before being recognized by the existing government (say in Gondor before he was crowned), he would have been ignored. Aragorn even traveled to Gondor under an alias during the rule of the Steward Ecthelion II, but exercised no authority as King of Gondor; he merely served the steward as an advisor and commander in Gondor's armies.

Aragorn is not the only rightful king who refused to exercise his authority when he had no de facto rule over his territory. Thorin II did not reign as king until he had reclaimed Erebor. He, like the Chieftains of the Dunedain, exercised authority over subjects, but not the title and rights of a king over his kingdom. During the War of the Ring, Aragorn even wanted to avoid entering Minas Tirith until he had been crowned!

So, exercising any kind of authority as an officer/leader of Gondor is right out. Whether or not he had a right to isn't really the question, it's a question of would he have done so. The answer is no: Aragorn would exercise no authority derived from his status as king of Gondor until he had been crowned.

Next, his status as a member of the Fellowship. It has been brought up before that he might have challenged Gandalf's leadership if it appeared that Gandalf was leading the company to ruin. Arrest might be interpreted as simply devesting him of leadership authority and taking on the role himself. This is possible, but exceedingly unlikely. It would, first, require the support of either the rest of the Fellowship, or the Ringbearer, as even Gandalf deferred to Frodo's decisions. As has been brought up before, Gandalf was known (to Aragorn) to be a true and faithful servant of the Valar. His wisdom, while not entirely beyond question, was not to be taken lightly. Aragorn understood that Gandalf had the experience to properly evaluate the risks of traveling through Moria, despite their lack of knowledge of what was occupying the place. Gandalf's fall demonstrates that he was not infallible, but all other roads had been reasonably disqualified, and Boromir's evident desire to get the Ring to Gondor was troubling to all those who recognized it.

Gimli's desire to enter Moria wasn't exactly bias, in my opinion, but a combination of information and ignorance. Though the dwarves had not heard from the colony in Moria for some time, they had traveled to Rivendell (in large part) to seek Elrond's advice on investigating. They had no evidence that the colony had been destroyed; they just had no word whatsoever. Hardly confidence inspiring, but also not a reason to believe that it had been completely destroyed. Gimli obviously believed that some kind of friendly party likely occupied the place, or that whatever hostile force had occupied it before had been sufficiently subdued that it would present less of a threat than paths that were known to be watched by active enemies.

And, despite all that, Gandalf still thought it was a bad idea. He just saw no better option. He and Aragorn, in fact, agreed on that. They resolved that without a safer option, they would take the path of least resistance that wasn't confirmed to be under the watchful eye of a known enemy, but one that might be occupied by an unknown enemy that could reasonably have been recently defeated, in part if not in whole.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Corsair_Caruso

Arrest might be interpreted as simply devesting him of leadership authority and taking on the role himself.

Indeed, arrest does not necessarily mean sending Gandalf to jail. Aragorn taking over the leadership is a form of arrest, if done in such a manner as to dethrone Gandalf as the outright leader and authority of the Company and the quest.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

I get the feeling in the Hobbit Tolkein doesn't bill Gandalf as a Maiar, only a wizard, who could indeed be harmed by ordinary weapons.

You just used The Hobbit as part of your argument that the orcs had a better chance of beating Gandalf. Since we are both using this source, there is no need for you to dismiss it now, especially as it has been used in your arguments.

Originally Posted by Moonraker

In the Hobbit, Tolkein suggests Gandalf would have died after leaping off his pine tree and into the crowd of orcs and their spears.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

You just used The Hobbit as part of your argument that the orcs had a better chance of beating Gandalf. Since we are both using this source, there is no need for you to dismiss it now, especially as it has been used in your arguments.

I actually think this was just an inconsistency with the true nature of Gandalf as a Maiar from the Hobbit to the Lord of the Rings. I don't believe anything but a Maiar could have killed Gandalf the Grey, and a powerful one at that.

[Corsair_Caruso]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

I actually think this was just an inconsistency with the true nature of Gandalf from the Hobbit to the Lord of the Rings. I don't believe anything but a Maiar could have killed Gandalf the Grey, and a powerful one at that.

I disagree.

I think it is important to note the difference between the eternal and immortally wise Olorin the Maia (Maiar is plural, Maia singular) and Gandalf the Wizard/Istar. Tolkien states in Unfinished Tales that the bodies of the Istari are real bodies, not just physical forms that the Maiar and Valar habitually wore to interact with the Children of Iluvatar.

"For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain..."

[...]

... the Istari, being clad in bodies of Middle-earth, might even as Men and Elves fall away from their purposes, and do evil, forgetting the good in the search for power to effect it. [...] For it is said indeed that being embodied the Istari had need to learn much anew by slow experience, and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly. Thus by enduring of free will the pangs of exile and the deceits of Sauron the might redress the evils of that time." (Unfinished Tales: The Istari)

Let's look at these points. The bodies of the Istari could hunger, thirst, be slain, they forgot much of their wisdom and knowledge they had in their lives as Maiar in Valinor, and beforehand, and they could even fall into mortal sin from ignorance, fear, lust for power, etc... These were real bodies, that their incorruptible ëalar forms inhabited in a fashion similar to the fëar of the Mirröanwi inhabit their hröar. I'm fully of the opinion that Gandalf could have been slain by the wolves, or the Orks, or Gandalf could even have starved to death in the dungeons of Dol Guldur or died of exposure or thirst in his travels in Middle-earth, had he not taken care. Was he hardier than he looked? Definitely. He could probably survive being deprived of food or water longer than a man of his apparent age, perhaps even better than most Men, maybe even as well as Elves. But could he starve to death or die of dehydration? I think so. Could a Warg have ripped his throat out and would he have bled to death? I'm sure. It didn't happen, because Gandalf had the skills and power to prevent it, but it could have happened.

The difference between Olorin and Gandalf is pretty big, in my opinion. Gandalf, being embodied in a physical body that was his own and not just a fancy meat-suit he fabricated for himself, was subject to hormones and aching joints and adrenaline and being cranky because he was cold or hungry. He could forget spells and get frustrated and irritable because of it. Olorin was not subject to these same problems. Gandalf had much stricter limits on his authority and power than Olorin did, and Gandalf was much more easily slain than Olorin was. The two identities are distinct, though obviously intimately connected.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Corsair_Caruso

I disagree.

I think it is important to note the difference between the eternal and immortally wise Olorin the Maia (Maiar is plural, Maia singular) and Gandalf the Wizard/Istar. Tolkien states in Unfinished Tales that the bodies of the Istari are real bodies, not just physical forms that the Maiar and Valar habitually wore to interact with the Children of Iluvatar.



Let's look at these points. The bodies of the Istari could hunger, thirst, be slain, they forgot much of their wisdom and knowledge they had in their lives as Maiar in Valinor, and beforehand, and they could even fall into mortal sin from ignorance, fear, lust for power, etc... These were real bodies, that their incorruptible ëalar forms inhabited in a fashion similar to the fëar of the Mirröanwi inhabit their hröar. I'm fully of the opinion that Gandalf could have been slain by the wolves, or the Orks, or Gandalf could even have starved to death in the dungeons of Dol Guldur or died of exposure or thirst in his travels in Middle-earth, had he not taken care. Was he hardier than he looked? Definitely. He could probably survive being deprived of food or water longer than a man of his apparent age, perhaps even better than most Men, maybe even as well as Elves. But could he starve to death or die of dehydration? I think so. Could a Warg have ripped his throat out and would he have bled to death? I'm sure. It didn't happen, because Gandalf had the skills and power to prevent it, but it could have happened.

The difference between Olorin and Gandalf is pretty big, in my opinion. Gandalf, being embodied in a physical body that was his own and not just a fancy meat-suit he fabricated for himself, was subject to hormones and aching joints and adrenaline and being cranky because he was cold or hungry. He could forget spells and get frustrated and irritable because of it. Olorin was not subject to these same problems. Gandalf had much stricter limits on his authority and power than Olorin did, and Gandalf was much more easily slain than Olorin was. The two identities are distinct, though obviously intimately connected.

Gandalf the White does say in The White Rider that ordinary weapons could not hurt him.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

I actually think this was just an inconsistency with the true nature of Gandalf as a Maiar from the Hobbit to the Lord of the Rings. I don't believe anything but a Maiar could have killed Gandalf the Grey, and a powerful one at that.

I have to disagree. Sauron, while bearing the One Ring was defeated by Gil-galad and Elendil the Tall. An Elf and a Dúnadan. Hardly Maiar themselves.

Originally Posted by Silmarillion; Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

Sauron himself came forth: and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down

Originally Posted by FotR; The Council of Elrond

I beheld the last combat on the slopes of Orodruin, where Gil-galad and Elendil fell, and Narsil broke beneath him; but Sauron himself was overthrown, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand

Originally Posted by Letter #131

Gilgalad and Elendil are slain in the act of slaying Sauron.

These are some of the references to Sauron dueling with an Elf and Dúnadan and both parties killing each other, like what happened with Gandalf and the Balrog. I'd say it's possible that Gandalf could be killed with weapons these guys possessed.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I have to disagree. Sauron, while bearing the One Ring was defeated by Gil-galad and Elendil the Tall. An Elf and a Dúnadan. Hardly Maiar themselves.


These are some of the references to Sauron dueling with an Elf and Dúnadan and both parties killing each other, like what happened with Gandalf and the Balrog. I'd say it's possible that Gandalf could be killed with weapons these guys possessed.

Sauron was defeated, but not killed outright.

Possibly very powerful weapons could have harmed Gandalf the Grey, not sure about killing him outright though. Not orc spears however, even if this is stated in the Hobbit.

[Smug the Fabulous]

Proof of the physical fallibility of the Istari: Saruman. He was a powerful wizard and leader of the Istari, yet he was killed simply by having his throat slit.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Smug the Fabulous

Proof of the physical fallibility of the Istari: Saruman. He was a powerful wizard and leader of the Istari, yet he was killed simply by having his throat slit.

That after being denounced from the Istari by Gandalf the White. The breaking of Saruman's staff was symbolic of loss of all Maiar power, save his commanding voice.

[Smug the Fabulous]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

I get the feeling in the Hobbit Tolkein doesn't bill Gandalf as a Maiar, only a wizard, who could indeed be harmed by ordinary weapons.

You would be correct. Remember which book was written first.